Evidence of meeting #26 for Veterans Affairs in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contract.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Whitney McSheffery  Case Manager, Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees, As an Individual
Amanda Logan  Case Manager and President, Local Union 60006, Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees, As an Individual
Angela Aultman  Case Manager and President, Local Union 90002, Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees, As an Individual
Corporal  Retired) Kelly Carter (As an Individual

12:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

We can now proceed to the second panel of this meeting.

I have a quick reminder for our witness. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

Members of the committee, I would like to welcome our witness. He's on video conference. He is Kelly Carter, master corporal, retired.

Mr. Carter, you're going to have five minutes for your opening remarks. After that, members of the committee will ask you questions.

Please turn on your mike and go ahead. Thank you.

November 21st, 2022 / 12:30 p.m.

Master Corporal Retired) Kelly Carter (As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair and House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs, for the study on third party contracting out of services.

My name is Master Corporal Kelly Carter, retired, and I am a 30-year veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces army logistics branch. I retired out of Garrison Edmonton in Alberta on August 14, 2013. I have six recognized operational and service-related physical injuries, all chronic, with varying degrees of mobility issues and with pain management that I deal with drug-free.

I left the military with all my weight-bearing joints suffering from osteoarthritis and was bone-on-bone for what has now been mandated for Veterans Affairs Canada to recognize as cumulative joint trauma. The Land Forces Command physical fitness standard, also called the battle fitness test, or BFT, and weekly training for the annual test of forced rucksack marches with a 25-kilogram load I directly blame for approximately 75% of my cumulative joint trauma, now legislated and mandated as a recognized pensionable condition by the veterans charter and Veterans Affairs Canada.

I served on two tours of duty in airborne special operations positions and self-identify approximately 15% of my cumulative joint trauma on airborne parachuting and operational missions.

I was a professional athlete for the Canadian Armed Forces triathlon and swimming teams. While the cycling and swimming were lower-impact, to the running training for the Olympic triathlon distance of 10 kilometres I attribute 10% of my cumulative joint trauma.

I would like to bring forth to this committee my dealings with VAC third party contractors that Veterans Affairs Canada has farmed out their federal public service duties to. I have had horrible experiences with third party contractors, including the organization doing business as “Canadian Veterans Vocational Rehabilitation Services”, or CVVRS, once in my home in Calgary, Alberta, in May 2017, and several times in B.C. in late 2020.

On May 9, 2017, a man who worked for CVVRS entered my home in Calgary and had me answer a series of questions pertaining to my personal life, income and expenses and do physical tests that I can best describe as “dog tricks”. While I was standing in my living room, he had me conduct a series of physical tests while he sat at my dining room table taking notes.

The tests had me pretending to pick up a box, simulating walking up and down stairs and going down and crouching like a tiger about to pounce. At one point, he asked me to go down on my hands and knees and crawl around my floor while he stood up and watched me crawl around. It was at this point that my Irish anger came out. I terminated the testing, asked him to leave my home and escorted him out of my home.

I then filed a formal written complaint to my VAC caseworker Brian Rees, and later initiated a ministerial inquiry to the VAC minister and Calgary member of Parliament Kent Hehr. My letter has been provided as documentary evidence for translation and the public record.

My other incident with CVVRS was in Victoria, B.C., in the fall of 2020, on the telephone with a woman by the name of Anita. When I asked her for a list of all the Canadian companies that want to hire veterans like me to be sent to my email address, she laughed at me, mocked me and thought it was funny. During an ATIP request, I found evidence of her mocking me on my VAC notes.

I was forthright with CVVRS that if they could not provide me with the list I had requested, they were a group of fake phony-baloney frauds who were not there to actually help veterans find a job but to administer to VAC proof that we were applying for five to seven jobs per week and not actually helping us find employment. My VAC caseworker, based out of Nanaimo, B.C., whom I have never met in my life—she was a work-from-home-in-pajamas employee—lied to me when she said that the CVVRS organization was not the same CVVRS organization that I dealt with in Calgary on May 9, 2017.

In 2019, while I was employed with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, I wanted to pursue a course held twice a year in B.C. I completed the Veterans Affairs Canada education and training benefit short-course forms required and, with a cover letter, asked VAC to contact me for other questions that I had. I missed the spring and fall 2019 courses, with no response from VAC.

We are threatened by the letter of authorization, which has been provided as documentary evidence for translation, that we cannot enrol in these programs until authority has been given by VAC or we will not be reimbursed.

During a 2020-21 formal investigation I ordered to be conducted by Veterans Affairs Canada, I was told by my caseworker, Ms. Danielle Roline-Dilbert, that VAC does not administer the education and training benefit, which is $80,000 for me. It is handled by a third party—

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but your five minutes are over.

Master Corporal Kelly Carter, maybe during questions you will be able to finish your intervention.

Right now I have to go to MPs to ask questions. They're going to have a round of six minutes each. You can share your time.

I would like to invite Mr. Blake Richards, the first vice-chair of the committee.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Thank you.

Thank you, Master Corporal Carter, not only for your testimony today but for your service to this country. I want you to know that we are doing everything we can to make sure that the services provided to you are what you deserve for the service you have provided to this country.

To that end, we've heard a lot of concerns about this change that's being made—

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Excuse me, Mr. Richards. I'm sorry to interrupt you also, but we have votes. I stopped your time. You've only had 29 seconds.

We have to have a discussion among us. We have 30 minutes to go vote, and I'd like to have a consensus.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Might I suggest possibly giving each party two and a half minutes so we use a little bit of the time and still have time for everyone to get there for the votes?

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

There is a proposition of two and a half minutes for each group.

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Will that be for a total of 10 minutes?

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Yes, it's a total of 10 minutes.

We're going to go for two and a half minutes.

You've already have 30 seconds. Please, go ahead.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

My apologies, Master Corporal Carter, but the government has moved a time allocation, which means they're trying to close off debate on a bill in the House of Commons. A vote has been requested, and, unfortunately, that will cut your time a little short, but I do appreciate your being here.

I want to make sure we maximize the time we have with you.

We've heard a lot of concerns about this changeover of this contract. Do you feel that veterans have been properly consulted in this change?

12:35 p.m.

MCpl (Ret’d) Kelly Carter

We have not been consulted at all on this change, other than this opportunity for me to speak today because I've been a veterans' advocate and have been watching what was going on. I was glad that I was invited today.

12:35 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Thanks.

It's obviously appalling to hear that veterans have not been consulted when you're talking about a change that's going to have a significant impact.

I don't know if you have been following along, but, in the last panel, we heard something that I was quite shocked and appalled by, which was that over the last month in the lead-up to the changeover tomorrow, case managers at VAC had been told not to initiate any new medical or psychosocial services for veterans during this transition period.

Does that concern you? What kind of impact do you think that's going to have on veterans, particularly those who come with mental health challenges?

12:40 p.m.

MCpl (Ret’d) Kelly Carter

Mr. Chair and Member of Parliament Blake Richards, I am starting to see the same writing on the wall that we saw as public servants when Phoenix was rolled out without a proper test trial, with one department in the federal public service to try it out.

I am very deeply concerned that this has not been discussed, rolled out or implemented properly, and when the switch turns to on, it may become an utter failure, just the Phoenix payroll system was on day one when it was first turned on.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB

Thank you.

Thank you, again, for your service to this country.

12:40 p.m.

MCpl (Ret’d) Kelly Carter

Thank you, Member of Parliament.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thank you, Mr. Richards.

Mrs. Valdez, you have two and a half minutes. Go ahead, please.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Rechie Valdez Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Master Corporal Carter, thank you so much for joining us today and for the many years of service you've provided to this country.

In this committee, past witnesses have requested that VAC provide an experience to them that will be inclusive and meet each of the unique needs of veterans. This new contract proposes to customize services for each veteran and also, then, to consult with veterans on the overall service in the plan they're intending to have with them.

I want your thoughts on that.

12:40 p.m.

MCpl (Ret’d) Kelly Carter

I've had dealings with the organization that I've heard is going to be taking over. They've had extensive experience with veterans in dealing with physical aspects of their injuries. Anything outside of that context I cannot comment on. They do have a very comprehensive third party billing system in place. However, anything outside of physical I have no comments on. I have no knowledge of how this is going to be rolled out.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Rechie Valdez Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Part of the changes would enable veterans like you to provide feedback easily on a regular basis. I want your input on that as well.

12:40 p.m.

MCpl (Ret’d) Kelly Carter

I do not feel that the current system at Veterans Affairs Canada, including the ombudsperson system, is reacting to and listening to veterans. I personally have spoken with ombudsperson staff about issues and concerns. They are more inclined to want to close the file than to actually action the file. They want to close the file and move on. I have yet to speak with any of the ombudspersons in person regarding any of these issues or concerns.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Rechie Valdez Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Thank you. I think I'm out of time.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

You have 30 seconds.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Rechie Valdez Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

I want your input overall. You've touched on how these changes will impact you. Since I can't really ask a more thorough question of you right now, is there anything else you want to share?

12:40 p.m.

MCpl (Ret’d) Kelly Carter

Yes. I think Member of Parliament Blake Richards is right on track when he says he is concerned, as are many people. This may be like the Phoenix payroll system, in that it will just be turned on, as I just heard in this meeting, tomorrow, November 22, and it is not ready to handle the numbers I've seen—approximately half a million living veterans in Canada.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg

Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Valdez.

Now we go to Luc Desilets for two and a half minutes.