Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 21st, 2022

[Angela Aultman]

Yes, I have. It happens.

I am a case manager who will advocate not to close it, but there are still times when I get directed that a file has been here long enough: “You're closing it.” That throws the veteran into crisis, in which case they come back within a month.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

Time goes by fast. We're going to have rounds of one minute each, but I would like to tell you that, if you have any background or additional information, do not hesitate to send it to our clerk, and we will take that into consideration for our report.

Now, for one minute only, I invite Mr. Blake Richards.

Please, go ahead.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thank you.

I appreciate your testimony today. It's evident how much you care. We're hearing that there are a lot more questions than we have answers to. That's what's going on here.

With that in mind, I'm going to move a motion:

That the committee hold two more meetings on the impact of the new rehabilitation contract awarded by the Department of Veterans Affairs on the role of the case manager and quality of service delivery on or before December 5th:

One in which the committee calls potentially impacted service providers and veterans to appear before the committee for no less than two hours.

One in which the committee calls the Minister of Veterans Affairs and Veterans Affairs Canada officials to appear before the committee for no less than two hours.

The reason I'm moving that is that we've heard lots of concerns today about the affected service providers and what that will mean for the quality of service for veterans. We're going to hear from one veteran here, shortly. There is certainly a need to hear about the impact this is going to have on veterans, because, from what we're hearing, it sounds like it's going to be pretty significant. Obviously, there are a lot of unanswered questions. I think it would be very helpful for this committee to hear from the minister and his officials, so they can answer some of the questions that are arising.

We have heard concerns about the fact that there have been no mental health services provided to veterans in new situations over the past month. We're hearing that case managers have no idea what is happening. This is supposed to start tomorrow. Veterans are confused. There are a lot of questions that need to be answered. We need more time.

That's why I'm moving this motion, and I hope all members of this committee will pass it expeditiously, right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Richards.

Did you put that motion on notice?

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

No, Mr. Chair. I moved the motion so we can discuss it right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Okay.

Please give us one minute. The clerk is sending the motion in both official languages to members.

I'm sorry, witnesses. Please stay there. It won't be long.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I apologize that this takes away the last few minutes we had with you, but I think you can appreciate it. Your concern for our veterans is very evident. This will hopefully help us get some answers, so I hope you appreciate that and understand.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I have to tell you that this is our procedure. As soon as we have a motion moved, we have to discuss it. I'm sorry for that interruption.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Mr. Chair, if I can, perhaps, while the motion is being sent around, I have a couple of comments to make.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Sure, give us some background on the motion.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Obviously, it is my sincere hope that.... We have all heard a lot of concerning questions here. There is a lot of information that we do not yet have—that case managers, service providers and, most importantly, veterans and their families don't have. That's why we need this opportunity to get a few more of our questions answered.

We haven't heard from the service providers, which are key aspects of this. We're going to hear next to nothing from veterans. We have one opportunity with a veteran here, shortly. Because the government is going to be moving time allocation in order to try to force through a bill in the House of Commons, that veteran's time will be cut short. We need to have the opportunity for veterans to add their voices to this conversation.

My sincere hope is that everyone on this committee will understand that it's critical we do this, and that we pass this quickly to enable the veteran who is here to speak with us. The opportunity to do that.... Because we will have passed this motion quickly, we can move on and allow the veteran to have his opportunity to speak with us today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Richards.

It's already been one hour of this meeting. We know that we have another witness coming in the next panel, but it's up to the committee to debate that motion, and I would like you to think about that.

Mr. Desilets is first, and then Mr. Samson.

Mr. Desilets, go ahead.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ever since we started examining this issue, the grey area and uncertainty have been constant, so much so that I can't figure out what's true and what's not. I don't doubt what you're telling us—that's not it, at all— but the information we're getting from the department about case manager caseloads is different. The numbers you're giving us are scary. Questions are swirling about the company's ability to meet clients' needs as you do. Department officials have tried to reassure us, but I'm perplexed as to how the analyst charged with drafting our report is going to manage given all the conflicting information.

I wholeheartedly support adding another two meetings to the study.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

Honourable members, my understanding is that, given the importance of the issue, you want to continue discussing the motion and cut into our time with the next panel.

Next, we'll hear from Mr. Samson and, then, Mrs. Wagantall.

Go ahead, Mr. Samson.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We have another study that is due very soon on employment strategy. I understand that the national forum is taking place as we speak on that. The department was here Thursday and gave its feedback, and so did the minister. Calling them back, in my opinion, is not necessary. I would be open to maybe having one extra meeting with some veterans. However, again, you have to keep in mind that this has been in the works for one year. Nothing was said except a week or so ago. I know that there are opinions on both sides, and I respect that sincerely.

I also know that there were six town halls that were held with various teams, with case workers and others—delivery staff—with over 800 people in attendance. There has been quite a bit of consultation. I believe that we could support one more meeting with veterans so that we can get more information to provide a report, but this work has been in the works. It's moving forward, and our objective should be focused on how we can support the work of our case workers and this company with over 9,000 support staff in giving access to veterans and their families right across the country, from urban to rural communities.

That would be my suggestion. We would be okay with one more meeting, but bringing back the department and the minister, who were just here last meeting.... I believe we need to continue the work that we have planned to deliver as we've set forth.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Samson.

Ms. Mathyssen, the floor is yours.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

It's always interesting to insert yourself into another committee's business, as I've had to do again on this one. I'm not entirely sure of your schedule or your calendar as it's set out, but I know that Ms. Blaney is particularly concerned and wants to move forward with the study and the report on the gold digger clause as well, which needs to be completed.

We are in support of those two meetings, considering that there has been such a juxtaposition, I guess, of positions on this, for clarification. In terms of the minister coming before this committee, I think that's acceptable. Again, it has been made clear by the workers and by the union that the relationship needs better clarification.

I also note that the minister is already invited to come before this committee for another study, on MAID, so perhaps that invitation could be extended for a longer committee meeting with the minister so that you could hear on both subjects.

That would be my insert on this. We are in support of the motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

As Mr. Samson said, we have the minister this Thursday. The study on marriage after 60 is supposed to be on November 28, the week after.

Mr. Sean Casey, please go ahead.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I don't want to repeat any of the points that have been made, but I would like to raise a couple of procedural things.

It's most unfortunate that Mr. Caputo and Ms. Blaney are not here.

I'm glad to see you in the chair, Mr. Chair, and Mr. Desilets here, because you two were party to the discussions that led to the setting of our agenda and the allocation of time to the various topics. You are fully aware of the conversations that happened and the compromises that were made in camera. I am not allowed to speak about those, because they were, in fact, in camera.

It's unfortunate that Ms. Blaney and Mr. Caputo aren't here, because they were involved in those discussions, made those compromises and arrived at the calendar that we now have. They gave certain assurances at that time.

All of those things are being thrown out the window if this motion is adopted. I think as members of the subcommittee, we should be able to rely on the good faith of the colleagues on that committee to honour the agreements that were made at that committee and to honour them when they come here. This would breach that.

That's the first thing I have to say. If this motion passes, I personally feel betrayed.

The second thing I would mention is just the irony of the opening intervention of today's meeting, where the vice-chair complained about the lack of a heads-up over the insertion of 15 minutes of committee business, and yet this motion happens without any discussion, any consultation, out of the blue, in front of witnesses, in a manner that will impair the amount of time we have with a veteran.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Casey.

Yes, Mr. Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

On a point of order, Chair, I certainly agree with the concern that Mr. Casey just raised about impairing the time with a veteran, but I will point out that, at this point, the only speakers on the list are members of the Liberal Party, of the government. If they were to just stand aside and let the vote happen, we could have the time with the veteran.

I certainly hope we'll find that time—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I'm sorry, Mr. Richards. You moved a motion, and all the members can take the time to discuss it. I'm just trying to do that job.

Mr. Samson, go ahead, please.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you.

I would be open to making an amendment that we have one more meeting, but that the meeting be one hour with the department to clarify some points that may have been brought up today, with the other half of that meeting for veterans. We would accomplish both in one meeting.

I'm asking to amend this motion so that rather than two meetings, it be one meeting, and at that meeting we have the department for one hour and veterans for another hour. I believe we would accomplish our objective over and above and not derail too much the important studies that have been agreed upon by all parties.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I'm sorry, but before I go to Mr. Rogers, Mr. Samson, could you read the motion, in order to have your amendment for the analyst and the clerk?

Could you read, either in French or in English, the amendment that you're proposing, please?

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

It would read:

That the committee hold one more meeting on the impact of the new rehabilitation contract awarded by the Department of Veterans Affairs on the role of the case manager and quality of service delivery on or before December 5th:

Half of which the committee calls potentially impacted service providers and veterans to appear before the committee for no less than one hour.

Half of which the committee calls the Minister of Veterans Affairs and Department of Veterans Affairs officials to appear before the committee for no less than one hour.

We're changing the two hours to one hour, and having one meeting rather than two meetings. It's a simple amendment that I feel would allow us to accept that motion. It's a workable one. With any more than that, I think we're going to derail our schedule and focus. It will keep us on task.