Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 24th, 2022

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I'll direct this question to Mr. Ledwell.

In reviewing these conversations in regard to telephone calls being taped, it appears that not all are, specifically in regard to case managers calling the veteran. I know this because this individual this morning indicated that he had tried to get that conversation and they said that it had been too long and that it had likely been erased. They also said that it's one in 25 for quality control.

Can you tell me, are these calls reviewed before they're erased?

[Paul Ledwell]

Just to clarify, only calls that come in through our national client contact centre, our 1-800 number, are recorded. Once a call that may come in through that source is referred to a veterans service agent or to a case manager, that recording stops, and there are no further recordings of those calls between the veteran and their veterans service agent or their case manager.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Sir, this individual told the veteran that chances are that the call would have been erased by now because it had been too long, or, with the case managers, it's one in 25 for quality control. If you're doing quality control recordings, they don't serve any purpose unless you check them.

Very quickly, yes or no, are they reviewed before they're erased?

[Paul Ledwell]

Calls into the national contact centre, yes, would be reviewed as a matter of course, but there are no other further calls that are recorded beyond that. Quality control, if I could, comes through—

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Okay. I just have so little time. I appreciate it.

If they are reviewed, that's fine. Thank you.

I am concerned because these individuals are growing in number. You indicate that you've reviewed hundreds of thousands of case files to determine if, as the minister said, “the word” is in documents. Can you tell me what the word is? Is it “MAID”? Is it “assisted suicide” or “assistance in death”? What exactly are the words that were searched for?

If I were a case manager doing what it appears this case manager was doing, I would be very careful as to what I wrote down.

[Paul Ledwell]

Mr. Chair, we undertook a search of 402,000 unique files. The search looked for references to MAID in its various guises, as well as “medical assistance in dying”.

Through that, we were able to determine the four cases that have been established through this single employee. These are the four cases that are the real focus of our investigation.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you. Those words were within files that you were able to retrieve that information from, then.

[Paul Ledwell]

That's correct.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Okay, thank you.

I think the minister contradicted himself somewhat in indicating that either the investigation was done or the investigation wasn't done.

Can you tell me, as VAC itself is continuing to deal with this issue, is an investigation continuing on within VAC, yes or no?

[Paul Ledwell]

Yes, the investigation is ongoing.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Okay, thank you.

He indicated that the issue has been referred to the RCMP because it's an HR issue. Can you tell me, please, what has been referred to the RCMP? Is it in regard to one single case manager, or is this a case where we need to be concerned that they are investigating with regard to possibly more cases of case managers doing this?

Like Ms. Blaney, I also hugely support the work of our case managers. The three we had before us a couple of days ago were exemplary.

Is it one case that's been referred to the RCMP or is this a case of concern over possibly other situations that need to be investigated criminally?

[Paul Ledwell]

If I could, through the chair, let me thank you for your comments about our case managers. I obviously fully agree.

These are four cases associated with one single employee that have been shared with the RCMP, from which they will be undertaking their further investigation.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Okay, thank you.

It was mentioned that there will be more work done on training case managers in regard to sanctuary trauma. I found that interesting. Basically, the term “sanctuary trauma” refers to a veteran facing greater harm, emotionally and mentally, because of VAC and the government not being able to meet their needs in a timely way or to actually provide the services that they should have.

Is that something you're going to train your workers on?

[Paul Ledwell]

Yes, we plan to extend the work that we currently do around trauma-informed training for all of our frontline employees—any employee who has interaction with veterans—to really build a greater and deeper understanding of sanctuary trauma and some of the moral injury that can occur through sanctuary trauma, so that there is an even deeper awareness of the circumstances by which veterans are coming to us, the importance of our interrelation with them and the way that we interact with them.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Okay, thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mrs. Wagantall.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Oh, I'm sorry. I try not to look at the chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Yes, it's important sometimes because I still carry my red card.

Thank you.

Now, I'd like to invite Mr. Darrell Samson for six minutes, please.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank, of course, the minister, who has left, and the employees—the deputy and Steven Harris—for being here with us today and sharing some of the key information.

I'd like to focus a little bit on the labour relations process because that by itself is an important part of how we deal with issues on the ground. Can you tell us what the status is on the labour relation process as it relates to our veterans service agents?

[Paul Ledwell]

If it's okay, Mr. Chair, I will start. I might ask my colleague to add anything I might not reference here.

It is an ongoing process that is not yet completed. It's guided by our collective agreement with the union representing this employee, as well as our general guidelines around employment in the public sector. It was initiated very soon after this issue came to light. It is through this process that we determined there were further cases. That has obviously put more emphasis on, and more seriousness around, this undertaking. It's not yet completed, but we are hopeful it will be completed soon.

I'll ask my colleague Mr. Harris whether he has anything to add to that.

[Steven Harris]

Thanks, Deputy.

I will add that it is a very formal process. It follows a case for determining what offence may have been committed, and what circumstances or mitigating factors are in place. It's also considered in terms of precedents and guidance. There is a lot of jurisprudence around how this process needs to take place, in keeping with the collective agreement. We're following that process.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I'm trying to follow up on morale. Were other employees aware of those discussions? How would we know if they were? Did they bring information forward, or did they not? What happens if they didn't? Can you chat a bit about that? I'm concerned about the morale, of course, on the ground, as well.

[Paul Ledwell]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

In the case that came forward this summer, the first case, this was raised so directly and seriously that it was shared immediately with the manager of this veterans service agent. That manager engaged, and others engaged soon after that. It was raised in all seriousness.

In terms of morale, as I said earlier, there is strong concern among colleagues who work in this space. They're not just concerned about themselves. They're concerned about veterans and how this might keep veterans from coming forward. They are very much determined to be in a space and place.... We are here to support our veterans, however difficult the circumstance might be. To think that a veteran might not come forward to our department to seek help when they need help, as a consequence of this, is something that worries our employees, I think. It certainly worries us among the department's leadership.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I have a follow-up question to that, because it's extremely important to make sure our veterans have the trust to come forward. What have we done—and what will we do—to ensure our veterans have the trust they need to continue to come forward and ask for help and benefits?

[Paul Ledwell]

I think we have our first face to the veteran, in terms of how they're coming forward, to ensure they have the professional support they require, and a level of care and compassion that comes from the employees. I know that is extended quite extensively. If there is any concern among veterans about the level or type of service, or grave concern about the kind of direction they are receiving, they have recourse.

In our own case, if difficult issues come forward—if a veteran feels they are not getting the level of attention or service they require—they can be escalated very quickly within the organization to supervisor or managerial levels. The veteran also has recourse through the Office of the Veterans Ombudsman, which was established precisely for these terms.

We have different measures to put in place, and we'll ensure that we are working as a team, in our organization, so a veteran has other places to turn to, within the department.

Again, I might ask my colleague Mr. Harris whether he has anything to add to that.