Debates of June 12th, 1996

Oceans Act

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

In my opinion the yeas have it.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I believe you would find unanimous consent to apply in reverse the vote of report stage Motion No. 8 to the motion now before the House.

Let me take this opportunity, in anticipation of that agreement, to thank my colleagues, the whips in other parties, as well as all hon. member for facilitating the voting process.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

Does the House give its unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

Canada Labour Code

[Alfonso Gagliano, Liberal, Minister of Labour and Deputy Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

moved that Bill C-35, an act to amend the Canada Labour Code (minimum wage), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, let me first say that I am very pleased to present Bill C-35, amending part III of the Canada Labour Code to increase the federal minimum wage rate.

In the 12 years I have been sitting in the House, I have never missed an opportunity to stand up for the most vulnerable in our society. The bill we are studying today goes precisely in this direction. I will not go as far as to describe it as a revolutionary measure that will change the life of millions, but it is a long-awaited amendment, because the federal minimum wage rate has not been changed for ten years. It is $4 an hour since 1986.

With Bill C-35, our government wanted to kill two birds with one stone. First, it provides that, as of next July 17, the federal minimum wage rate will really increase. It also includes a mechanism ensuring that, from now on, the rate will be automatically adjusted according to the economic realities of the various regions of our country. After studying several different formulas, our government chose to align the federal minimum wage rate with those established by the provinces and territories. This dynamic initiative is quite logical, practical and fair.

It is logical, because 98 per cent of the workers that are paid the minimum wage rate are employed in industries regulated by provincial or territorial legislation. Every province or territory regularly adjusts its minimum wage rate to meet regional requirements. Indeed, the economy and some of the market conditions

vary from region to region. And so does the minimum wage. Thus, across Canada, it varies between $4.75 and $7 an hour. If we had established a federal minimum wage, we would have gone against this reality.

Our formula is also practical, because it simplifies the process for keeping these rates up to date. By harmonizing our rate with the provincial rates, we avoid having to make statutory changes on a regular basis to reflect change in each of our regions.

Therefore, this initiative reflects our government's commitment to simplify government processes and reduce red tape wherever possible. Besides, business people will no longer have to worry about rate differences between both levels of government. Their employees will always be sure to get a pay equivalent to that of their peers.

This is unquestionable proof that the Canadian government is willing to co-operate with the provinces in order to give taxpayers good service quickly and at the best possible cost. We have always said that we should analyze which jurisdiction is in the best position to deliver a service, and adapt our operating procedures accordingly.

This is what we did in the case of Bill C-3 and this is what we are doing now with Bill C-35.

I hope my colleagues opposite, and especially members of the Bloc Quebecois, will recognize that we are serious and consistent in our approach. We have always said that Canadian federalism was flexible and dynamic. Here we have further proof that we can improve our operations without resorting to useless and unproductive jurisdictional squabbles.

Bill C-35 clearly reflects the strong commitment of the government to decentralization and to eliminating duplication and overlap. This amendment to the Canada Labour Code increases the federal minimum wages in a new and innovative way by aligning them with provincial rates based on regional economies. This clearly demonstrates our strong commitment to work with the provinces and territories to establish which jurisdiction is in the best position to deliver a specific service to Canadians.

In this case it is clear we are happy to harmonize our rates with those of the provinces and territories and to follow their lead in setting an appropriate increase in the future.

I strongly believe that everybody will gain from this simple and dynamic initiative. I also believe this new system will be practical, efficient and reliable.

However, should it be proven otherwise, the federal government will be ready to intervene to protect the interests of minimum wage workers. Those workers are generally not unionized and have little bargaining power with their employers. We retain the power to set our own federal minimum wages in the event that a province withdraws this floor or sets it an an unreasonable level.

I can say that Bill C-35 is based on the indisputable principles of justice and equity. It eliminates any possible discrimination between workers under federal jurisdiction and those under provincial or territorial jurisdiction.

It also allows for more balanced and sounder competition between businesses in any given region because now the obligations will be the same for everyone.

As far as equity is concerned, I would like my colleagues in the House to note that the new minimum wage rate will apply to all employees under federal jurisdiction, whatever their age. You will remember that in some Canadian provinces rates for young people and adults still differ. However, in order to be fair to our young workers, we chose to implement one single rate, that of the adult workers, to all businesses under federal jurisdiction.

Before the government decided to harmonize the federal minimum wage with that of the provinces and territories, it did what it always does: it consulted the major stakeholders.

The provincial governments welcomed the proposal, which will simplify the procedure and guarantee fair treatment of all workers in a given region.

On the management side, there were no opposition since the vast majority of employers under federal jurisdiction are already paying their employees the equivalent of the minimum wage in force in the various regions of the country.

The unions supported this measure because it implements the long awaited increase of the federal minimum wage and it also provides for automatic adjustments in the future.

All the interested parties recognize that this proposal is reasonable and that it takes into account the realities of today's labour market.

I must say, that in my work as Minister of Labour, I am impressed by the spirit of co-operation in our sector. I am delighted by it, because I am convinced that it is through dialogue and consultation that we will maintain effective and harmonious labour relations in Canada.

I think this attitude also reveals that labour and management are aware of the great challenges we must fact together at the dawn of

the new century. Their sense of responsibility and maturity are the envy of a number of other industrialized countries.

I therefore set myself the objective of channelling all this goodwill positively in order to amend our Canada Labour Code and to adapt it to the new realities of the labour market in Canada. We are currently working very hard to modernize part I of the Canada Labour Code, which concerns the labour relations process and structures in industries under federal jurisdiction.

Already, the members of the task force under Andrew Sims have agreed on a whole range of recommendations. Rarely have we seen the process of consultation achieve its objectives so successfully, and we must congratulate all those who have helped build this impressive consensus.

One major question, however, remains unanswered: the use of replacement workers during a legal strike. The members of the Sims committee have made two different suggestions. Other options were suggested by different experts, but I wanted to see for myself the mood of the people.

This is the reason why, during the month of April, I participated in consultations all over the country. Almost all stakeholders mentioned the problem of substitute workers and the relevance of a potential federal act respecting strike breakers. I took good note of their opinions, recommendations and warnings.

Consultations on Part I being completed, I am determined to go ahead rapidly. Officials at the bureau of legislation review are currently preparing the amendments I want to submit very soon to my colleagues in cabinet and to Parliament.

At the same time, our analysis of Part II of the labour code, which deals more specifically with health and safety in the workplace is progressing rapidly. Dozens and dozens of changes have been proposed and in this case also, an important consensus has developed. There is consensus on 90 per cent of the changes. There remain only a few questions for the minister to answer.

Finally, we are starting to study Part III of the Code on labour standards. This is the part I consider most crucial for the coming years. Everywhere in the country, a great nervousness and a strong concern can be felt in the face of the rapid changes occurring in the workplace.

This is why the second priority I have chosen as Minister of Labour is the workplace of the future. The shift from an industrial society to the information age, globalization, demographic changes and the imperatives of budgetary control is causing tremendous worries in society. How we work and how we prepare for our working lives are changing profoundly and irreversibly.

To begin with, fewer and fewer people are working year round, nine to five, Monday to Friday, for one employer on common premises according to established rules. Over the past decade the number of self-employed Canadians has grown twice as fast as traditional job opportunities. In Canada more than three quarters of a million men and women are working out of their homes, and that number is expected to double in the next five years. Furthermore, two-thirds of these home based workers are employed by a company which has its headquarters somewhere else.

At first glance some of these facts appear disturbing. It is true a large number of workers are resigning themselves to self-employment, part time jobs and home based jobs because they have been unable to find traditional work. Sometimes they accumulate two or three part time jobs.

However thousands of Canadians deliberately choose this type of work. Usually they do so to more effectively balance family and work related responsibilities. A growing number of workers are doing so to improve the quality of their lives or to make better use of their creativity, expertise and spirit of entrepreneurship.

Obviously, this more individualized and independent approach to work does not suit all workers. Therefore, in co-operation with the private sector, we must continue to do everything possible to create jobs of all kinds.

At the same time, we must seriously look at the challenges to industrial relations in Canada because of the new trends.

Several questions come to mind: What should be the role of the government when work becomes more individual than collective? How do we define the workplace when a considerable number of employees work at home? How do we better protect transient workers who do not enjoy a continuous employer-employee relationship? How can freelancers and contract workers have access to some kind of social benefits, of security? How do we prevent abuses on both sides?

These are questions we must answer very quickly. The Sims report touched on the subject in its last chapter entitled Beyond the Code . Last year, the Donner report carefully studied the whole issue of work distribution. Several researchers in the area of industrial relations are also working on this issue.

This is why I thought it would be appropriate to take a few minutes during our debate to raise the awareness of my colleagues regarding these issues and to ask them to take part in the brainstorming I want to have on the future of work. This is an issue which has a direct impact on Canadians. It is at the basis of our ability to adapt to change and compete in a global economy in the years to come.

In the meantime, I would invite all hon. members to fully support Bill C-35 before us now. This is a simple piece of legislation aimed primarily at bringing justice and fairness to those who are at the bottom of the pay scale. They are entitled to the dignity of work. They deserve our support and our help. We have the duty to provide it to them.

I trust you will find there is unanimous consent, once my colleagues opposite have stated their position, to go into committee of the whole, proceed with the report stage and third reading and refer the bill to the Senate.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

The House has heard the terms of the request from the Minister of Labour. Is there unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Kilger)]

There is no unanimous consent.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for his speech. First of all, I want to say that the official opposition will support Bill C-35.

I just discovered that, in his own way, the Minister of Labour follows the principles of Mao Zedong because he proposed several bills in a series that, we know, will culminate in the presentation of a legislation on replacement workers and the more comprehensive reform of the labour code that the minister will propose, naturally.

We must not underestimate the impact, the importance of legislation like this one, because it affects the most vulnerable people in our society.

The minister is right to remind us that the minimum wage issue-and I will get back to this later on-is all about individuals who generally share three characteristics. More often than not they are not protected by a collective agreement. Their jobs are unsure, often in sectors more sensitive to economic contingencies. Moreover, very often these jobs are part time.

It is a good thing the government decided to put an end to a situation that was absurd for two reasons. First of all, the federal government had not increased the minimum wage since 1986; it was still at $4. Later on I will show how this $4 rate ties in with the poverty levels. We had a ridiculous situation where a worker working for a company under federal jurisdiction was not entitled to the same wage as other workers in British Columbia, Newfoundland, and Saskatchewan.

The Minister of Labour, with this bill, is correcting an unfair situation by ensuring that, in a given province, all workers will be entitled to the same minimum wage.

I have looked at this bill carefully. I want to point out that we will reach heaven once we have antiscab legislation and once we have revised as fully as possible the Canada Labour Code, which is very complex, with its three parts. I want to let the minister know that I am deeply interested in these issues. We would be very happy to work in committee, because the labour market is, as we have pointed out, about to undergo major changes.

I need only give my family as an example. I believe it is typical of what is going on in the labour market. My father is almost sixty, and has had only one career. He made an honest living, but has always worked for the same employer. I turned 34 in May-I know I do not look that old-and this is my third career. We know that, by the year 2000, workers will go through five or six careers, and that the employer-employee relationship will be considerably weakened because of the increase in home teleworking.

This means that, as lawmakers, we must look carefully at the protection we want these workers to enjoy.

The minister has introduced a bill that we will support and that covers, if I read right, six main points. To start with, the minimum wage would be harmonized with that in effect in the various provinces, and that we agree with. That is central to the bill and we support it.

Let us remember, for the benefit of our audience, perhaps, the reality of the minimum wage across the country. We have said that the federal minimum wage has not changed since 1986 and stands at $4. It Alberta, the minimum wage is $5, but a distinction is made between workers under l8 and those over 18. This distinction will be done away with. Unless I am wrong, the minister feared, rightly, that it would not stand the test of the Canadian charter of rights. Such distinctions based on age will be tolerated less and less as time goes on.

British Columbia is the wealthiest province. I do not know whether you have been to Vancouver lately, but I have and I was astonished at the meaning of wealth in a province. British Columbia has the smallest debt. There is a correlation between the debt of a province and its ability to provide services. I was surprised to find that in B.C.-to give an example with which I am familiar-25 medications are made available to people with AIDS.

You will understand, then, that this global wealth index is reflected in the minimum wage. It will come as a surprise to no one that the minimum wage in our westernmost province is the highest at $7 per hour.

Prince Edward Island, which expects to have increased its minimum wage three times between 1991 and 1997, will reach the Canadian average of $5.40.

The minimum wage in Manitoba is $5.40; in New Brunswick, it is $5.50; in Nova Scotia, it will be increased from $5.35 to $5.50 in February.

In Mike Harris' Ontario, where, as you know, the situation is not always rosy, the minimum wage is $6.85 but we understand that, with its industrial structure, Ontario may be in a better position than Quebec to support a slightly higher minimum wage.

Quebec's minimum wage is $6.45, but one might think-I do not know if the minister has a scoop on that subject, but there is a rumour going around-it could be increased in the very near future, thanks to the bread and roses operation. This beautiful operation came about because of a willingness to link social awareness and economic awareness.

In Saskatchewan, the minimum wage is $5.35; in Newfoundland, about which we have talked a lot in the House in the last few weeks, it is $4.75; in the Northwest Territories, it is $7 and in the Yukon, $6.86.

So, there is a variety of viewpoints that may appear to be discriminatory toward workers and that cannot be explained. One cannot explain why there are two rates in effect in the same province or territory.

So, the minister has done something useful in proposing a bill aimed at harmonizing the wages that will be in effect on the same territory.

Second, if Bill C-35 is passed, the general rate will apply regardless of occupation, status or work experience, which is also desirable.

Third, there are still people who do piecework and therefore are not paid by the hour. My understanding of the bill is that the minister is making provisions so that, where applicable, an employee will never get less than the minimum wage.

Fourth, as it was said, the minimum wage based on age will not be permitted any more.

And fifth, the federal government-I had some questions about that, but the issue will probably be raised in committee of the whole in a few minutes-retains the authority to clearly set the minimum wage. The minister has been discreet on that matter, but he will be able to explain it, if it is indeed the legislator's intent.

This is essentially what the minister is proposing.

I would be doubly satisfied because, as I have said, we agree with the minister's logic. We are happy to see that the proposed harmonization really provides an increase in the minimum wage, given that the federal government was the jurisdiction with the lowest wage rate. We are happy to see that workers will no longer be discriminated against because of their age.

Of course, this legislation will affect a limited number of workers, as the Code protects only 10 per cent of the workforce. According to department officials, only 2 per cent of those 10 per cent will be affected. So, while we must recognize that the legislation has limited scope, it is important for the workers concerned.

I was pleased to hear the minister saying that, all through his career, which I followed from a distance, he has always stood up for the poor in our society. This awareness was apparent when we discussed the Program for Older Workers Adjustment or issues related to social legislation. The fact is that we witnessed a considerable erosion of what the minimum wage represents in relation to the policies needed to fight poverty.

Let me remind the minister that he should-and perhaps would like to in the coming days-review the report tabled by the National Council of Welfare, as I did last night. The report was tabled in October 1993 and is entitled Incentives and Disincentives to Work .

The National Council of Welfare is an organization which is affiliated with the Department of Human Resources Development and which must regularly report on the evolution of poverty levels.

I simply want to tell you about what the 1993 report said: comparing the reality of the minimum wage in 1976 and in 1992 leads to two findings. In 1976, most people who were paid the minimum wage had an income above the poverty line. In 1992, in every province, the minimum wage was below the poverty line.

It goes without saying that this situation is not the exclusive responsibility of the Minister of Labour, but involves the whole issue of policy directions. But the fact is that, as we speak, the minimum wage in effect in every province is below the poverty line.

This means that, for some people, there is no incentive to work. I often meet, in my riding of Hochelaga-Maisonneuve, in Montreal, people who have difficult choices to make. When they are beneficiaries of income security programs, it is sometimes more advantageous for them, particularly couples with children, to remain on these programs than to work. As a society, we have to have to wonder about this.

I know the Minister of Human Resources Development also has something to say about that, but the fact is that the minimum wage is now below the poverty line.

Let us take 1976 as an example. Collectively speaking, 1976 was a particular year. The minister surely recalls that, in 1976, a very progressive government came to power in Quebec. It is therefore a benchmark I like to refer to. In 1976, in Newfoundland, a person with a salary comparable to the minimum wage had an annual income of $5,200, an amount which was 5 percent above the poverty line.

In 1992, the minimum wage in Newfoundland gave an income of $9,880, which was 74 per cent of the amount needed to be at the poverty line. As you can see, there has been significant erosion of what the minimum wage buys for those who must live with it.

The same thing goes for Prince Edward Island. In 1976, the minimum wage meant an income of $4,992, which was 3 per cent above the poverty line; in 1992, this income was $9,880, or 76 per cent of the amount needed to reach the poverty line. I could give the numbers for all 10 provinces. This is a fact that the Minister of Labour, who invites us to ponder, should not forget.

Without underestimating the scope of Bill C-35, of which the Bloc Quebecois supports both the principle and the self-explanatory references, it would have been interesting if the government had introduced a single bill proposing to harmonize the minimum wage and concrete measures to fight poverty.

Let us never forget that. I hope we shall never discuss social policy or make reference to the minimum wage without keeping in mind that, overall, Canadian society is poorer than ever. There are in Canadian society people who are far from getting richer. Poverty is reaching classes that until now were believed to be protected from it.

I would like to remind the House of what the National Council of Welfare told us in its report last year. It wrote that 4.8 million children, women and men, that is one Canadian out of six, live in poverty. Poverty is defined as spending more than 56 per cent of one's income for basic needs such as clothing, food and housing. A person who spends more than that for basic needs is poor, according to the National Council of Welfare.

One Canadian out of six, or 16 per cent of the Canadian population, is in that situation. We have a fairly precise knowledge of the patterns of poverty. For example, single parent families headed by females are now significantly poorer. In 1994, the poverty rate of single mothers aged less than 65 with children under 18 was 57 per cent.

Now, one Canadian out of six, or 16 per cent of the population, lives in poverty, but the situation is much worse in certain segments of our society. We know that 57 per cent of lone-parent families headed by women with children under 18 years of age live in poverty. There is something very worrisome about this grim reality.

I appreciate the work done by the National Council of Welfare, because it showed us some possible ways to eradicate poverty. Since we have two ministers sitting side by side, two ministers from Montreal, which is quite something, who are committed to promoting liberty and equality, I want to take this opportunity to remind the House that the National Council of Welfare indicated that, if the Canadian government had invested $15 billion, we would have been able to eradicate poverty in just one year. Since I cannot say that to the Reform Party, I have to tell the government majority.

I am now quoting, for the listening enjoyment of the Minister of Labour, the National Council of Welfare: "In spite of the grim reality, it is not wishful thinking to think we will win the war against poverty. According to Statistics Canada, to help all the poor improve their lot would have cost $15 billion in 1994". This is a huge amount. Of course, we are not saying this is insignificant, but it is surely not exaggerated for a country where the federal, provincial and territorial governments spent some $350 billion in 1994 and where the value of all produced goods and services exceeded $750 billion. Is this not a reason to be hopeful? Should this not be the way to go?

It would have been very interesting for the Minister of Labour to put forward with this legislation a more general one providing job creation and full employment measures aimed at getting people out of poverty.

To conclude, I ask for the unanimous consent to refer Bill C-35 to a committee of the whole after the intervention of the Reform Party.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is there unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

No.

[Dale Johnston, Reform, Wetaskiwin, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the terms of the bill before us are under the guise of giving more powers to the provinces. If it did that, I would be all for it, but I suppose Bill C-35 is a small step toward eliminating useless, outdated regulations. The Canada Labour Code covers less than one million workers.

In 1986, the last time there was a change to the federal minimum wage, only one-tenth of one per cent or roughly 7,000 workers under federal jurisdiction were directly affected. While updated estimates are not available from department officials, there is a presumption that little has changed in that length of time.

In 1935, Canada ratified the ILO Minimum Wage Fixing Machinery Convention, 1928, which specified that workers would be guaranteed a minimum wage in cases where wages were exceptionally low.

It was 1965 before Canada actually began setting minimum wage rates. Since the provinces regulate over 99 per cent of Canadian minimum wage earners, there was not much need for expediency. Since there have been only sporadic changes in the rates since 1965, it is evident that the federal minimum wage is not necessary.

Back in the 1930s an argument may have been made to justify a minimum wage in some countries to ensure that workers were not taken advantage of by single industry employers.

There is a general misconception that without a minimum wage workers would be exploited. Employers want the best workers available and often compete to hire them. Low wages often show there is an abundance of workers available, which is just an example of the supply and demand concept.

The minimum wage, rather than bringing the poverty level up, has the reverse effect. It encourages exploitation. It protects highly trained, well paid workers against competition from the young who lack experience and the unskilled people who require on the job training.

Unions, whose mandate it is to protect jobs and increase the wages of its members, support minimum wage rates to protect themselves from cheaper or trainee labour. Naturally, when asked to respond to the initiative aligning federal minimum wage rates with provincial rates, labour groups wanted the federal government to show leadership by maintaining a single rate that is higher than the provincial and territorial minimum wages.

Business groups, on the other hand, indicated the change would have virtually no impact on their operations as the lowest paid wages were competitive with and generally higher than the provincial wage rates.

In the last 10 years Canada has entered into international trade agreements with the U.S. and Mexico which include labour co-operation. There were also agreements with the provinces to cover the provisions of these accords.

If a minimum wage is deemed to be necessary to meet international agreements and conventions, the government could guarantee the continued existence of a minimum wage by concluding federal-provincial agreements on minimum wage rates. This would eliminate the perceived necessity of section 178(2) which gives the governor in council power to set rates should it disagree with the rate set by a province or territory.

The Minister of Natural Resources boasted a new spirit of co-operation between the federal and provincial governments to an Edmonton group last week. If this spirit of co-operation really exists, section 178(2) can be deleted. The understanding works out to ensure that the provinces maintain reasonable minimum wage standards.

High wages cannot be decreed but must be arrived at through years of experience in the workplace. In the nineties, advances in human rights, collective bargaining and consumer awareness make minimum wages, especially in the federal context, irrelevant.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[An hon. member]

On division.

(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to a committee.)

Nuclear Safety And Control Act

[Alfonso Gagliano, Liberal, for the Minister of Natural Resources]

moved that Bill C-23, an act to establish the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission and to make consequential amendments to other acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

[Marlene Cowling, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to address the House on Bill C-23, the Nuclear Safety and Control Act.

In 1946 when the Canadian nuclear industry was in its infancy, Parliament passed the Atomic Energy Control Act which gave the federal government control over the development, application and use of nuclear energy. Fifty years later, despite the dramatic changes in the size and the scope of the nuclear industry, that legislation has never been significantly revised or updated. Clearly changes are long overdue, changes that this House can help bring about today by supporting Bill C-23 at second reading.

I would like to take this opportunity to review the key elements of this proposed legislation so that hon. members will have a true appreciation of why Bill C-23 is important for the nuclear industry and for all Canadians.

I will talk about the paramount importance of worker and public safety and environment protection and a more modern and effective regulatory framework that focuses on these goals. I will talk about reduced overlap and duplication, improved efficiency of the federation, increased competitiveness and job creation but, most important, I will demonstrate that Bill C-23 is a bill of good government.

When the current legislation establishing the federal role in the nuclear sector came into force, Canadians could only dream about the benefits of nuclear technology. Today each and every one of us in this House and each and every one of our constituents has experienced those benefits firsthand.

Nuclear power now accounts for approximately one-fifth of Canada's electricity supply. The nuclear sector has brought tremen-

dous economic benefits to our nation by ensuring a safe and reliable source of energy, supporting industrial growth and high technology jobs and contributing to our balance of trade. Nuclear technology has also brought enormous social benefits. For decades nuclear isotopes have been crucial for a range of medical uses.

The nuclear industry has grown to the point where it affects the lives of Canadians in many different ways. Yet the law governing the industry has not changed significantly since 1946. The focus of regulation is no longer the security of atomic secrets as it was in the 1940s, but it is now on the health, safety and environmental impact of using nuclear technologies.

Societies expectations about how and why government should regulate the nuclear sector have also changed considerably. For 50 years the Atomic Energy Control Board has used its authority under the current act wisely and effectively. The AECB has been influential in the development of strong safety cultures at Canada's nuclear reactors. Its vigilance with regard to safety is one reason why the safety of Canada's nuclear sector is second to none in the world.

Nevertheless, the status quo is no longer acceptable to Canadians or to this government. The current legislation's deficiencies have been noted by the courts, the media, special interest groups, committees of this House and Canada's auditor general.

Bill C-23 addresses these shortcomings by providing for more explicit regulation of nuclear activities and by ensuring that the regulatory body will have the legislated powers needed to fulfil its responsibilities.

Canada's nuclear regulatory agency will be given a clear mandate to focus on public concerns about the safety of nuclear facilities and the environmental impact of nuclear activities in Canada.

In keeping with this mandate, the AECB will be renamed the Canadian nuclear safety commission. This name change will help Canadians better identify with the principal role of the commission and will eliminate confusion with the Atomic Energy of Canada Limited or AECL, the crown corporation responsible for the development and support of Candu nuclear reactors.

The Canadian nuclear safety commission will continue to have responsibility for nuclear security issues. Bill C-23 will ensure a firm basis for implementing Canada's nuclear policy and fulfilling our obligations with respect to the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons. Under the non-proliferation policy, for example, the use of certain nuclear materials including uranium must be fully accounted for by Canada's nuclear customers. Bill C-23 clearly defines the new commission's responsibility for ensuring the proper accounting of these materials.

Nuclear matters are a federal responsibility. Over the past two decades this has led to some jurisdictional problems and to some overlap and duplication in regulations. The federal government has worked with the provinces to address the issue. For example, the government recently introduced amendments to the Canada Labour Code that would allow the government to adopt provincial legislation governing labour matters including labour relations and occupational health and safety, and to delegate responsibilities for administering these laws and regulations back to the provinces.

The proposed nuclear safety and control act includes similar interdelegation mechanisms that will give the Canadian nuclear safety commission the authority to enter into agreements with each province to adopt other relevant provincial standards, codes and laws that would then apply to nuclear activities. This would effectively establish a regulatory regime that respects provincial jurisdiction. The legislation also allows for the responsibility for administering regulations in these areas to be delegated to the provinces.

This new power to co-operate with the provinces is expected to reduce regulatory duplication between federal and provincial orders of government. In so doing it will help reduce administrative costs and establish greater certainty for the industry, thereby increasing the competitiveness of Canada's nuclear sector. This increased competitiveness will in turn preserve and create high tech jobs in Canada.

By explicitly referring to health, safety and protection of the environment, the proposed legislation will clearly match the commission's mandate to public expectations of its role. The government is committed to protecting the health and safety of Canadians and our environment.

The proposed legislation will permit the Canadian nuclear safety commission to order the clean up of radioactive contamination when responsibility for the contamination is unclear, under dispute, or where the polluter refuses to act. Currently the AECB does not have this power. This is precisely the kind of protection for Canadians that the auditor general called for in a report to the House in 1994.

It is also worth noting that the high standard for worker protection enshrined in Bill C-23 has received significant support from labour. In fact I have received a letter from the Canadian Labour Congress urging quick passage of Bill C-23.

As the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources I am pleased to inform the House that Bill C-23 has a strong environmental focus which is in keeping with the concerns of all Canadians and with the promise made in the red book that the Liberal government would lead in protecting Canada's environment.

Bill C-23 will explicitly require that the environmental effects of a proposed nuclear facility be assessed as part of the commission's licensing process. However I assure hon. members that the legislation will not in any way change the process for ensuring that the requirements of the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act continue to be met. In addition, Bill C-23 will make it possible to substitute the commission's hearing process for that of the CEAA.

The proposed legislation also contains many other characteristics of a modern regulatory system. The power of federal inspectors will be enshrined in the law. The maximum penalty for offences will increase dramatically from $10,000 to $1 million.

The new commission will also have the clear authority to order remedial action where necessary and to require financial guarantees for decommissioning, thus ensuring that owners meet high environmental standards.

At the same time the proposed legislation is intended to conform with the mining reclamation trust provisions of the Income Tax Act. This means that mining companies could be eligible for certain tax benefits, if they are required to settle such a trust as a licence condition.

Bill C-23 authorizes the new commission to charge fees to recover the costs associated with its regulatory activities. Although the AECB has collected fees from licensees to recover costs since 1990, its authority to do so is not explicitly legislated.

Bill C-23 proposes that the number of members of the commission be increased from the current five to seven. The government believes it is important to have a sufficient number of commissioners to deal expeditiously with all licensing decisions. It has become apparent that the current complement of five board members, only one of whom is full time, is insufficient. We believe the commission needs members who represent a wide range of expertise to deal with the broader set of issues now considered by this regulatory body.

These objectives can be achieved by increasing the number of positions on the commission. The cost of this increased representation, which amounts to approximately $100,000 per year, will be funded from internal reallocations.

Like any other modern regulatory agency, the new commission needs certain authority to function effectively. Consequently the commission will be declared a court of record and will have the authority to conduct formal public hearings, compel witnesses to appear, take evidence and control its proceedings.

Bill C-23 responds to the calls from many quarters for a modern law that will reflect the federal government's responsibilities and powers relating to the regulation of the nuclear industry.

The legislation will enable the federal government to ensure the nuclear industry continues to operate in a manner that protects the health and safety of Canadians and their environment.

Bill C-23 is an important step toward avoiding unnecessary regulatory overlap and duplication between the federal and provincial orders of government. It will also ensure that federal regulations are applied in a fair and just manner.

The steps will minimize the cost to the nuclear industry and allow it to pursue opportunities in an increasingly competitive world, creating new jobs for Canadians and contributing to the country's economic growth.

The commission will be better equipped than the current Atomic Energy Control Board to conduct public hearings and environmental assessments. It will have clear powers to inspect nuclear facilities and other premises where licensed activities are carried out, to enforce federal regulations, to order environmental clean-ups, and to seek suitable penalties.

Further, the use of additional commissioners will enable the commission to work in a cost effective manner while ensuring balanced decision making that fulfils the public interest.

Clearly the proposed legislation represents good government in action. The legislation acts on commitments outlined in the recent speech from the throne for sustaining our environment and for ensuring a modern regulatory regime that will meet the needs of the 21st century.

Based on an open and honest discussion of Bill C-23 and its many merits, I am confident hon. members on both sides of the House will join me in voting to send the legislation to committee.

[René Canuel, Bloc, Matapédia—Matane, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the purpose of this bill is to create the new Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission. As my colleague has just pointed out, the old legislation dates back to 1946, so it can certainly be described as outmoded.

This commission is primarily a monitoring body, and whenever I hear monitoring, I wonder who will do this. Will the number of monitors be increased? What will their qualifications be? What will this all cost?

The commission's mandate is also to monitor the impact of nuclear activities on health. This is very important. In my riding I see people from Russia who have been the victims of nuclear

accidents. They take years to recover. They need fresh air and good food as well. It is obvious that there can never be too many protective precautions taken.

The commission will also be responsible for safety, which is all very well and good. The environment needs more looking after, as we are told, and I feel that the commission will be better able to protect our environment. Very often the opposition is criticized for doing nothing but finding fault, but I think that, when a bill is worthwhile, that must be acknowledged. The Bloc acknowledges the definite quality of this bill.

The commission may also set national standards. I believe that it is important, yet my colleague was saying earlier that ertain powers can be turned over to the provinces. Here again-alas, too often-that can lead to quarrelling. I wonder why more powers are not turned over to the provinces.

The commission will also play a role in implementing policy and international commitments concerning the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons. Finally, it has a major role to play in co-ordinating emergency measures, for instance in the event of a leak at a nuclear plant.

Where nuclear energy and radioactive emissions are concerned, it is essential that safety be a government priority. Clearly, the old Atomic Energy Control Act which, as I have said, dates back to 1946, was essentially focussed on national security.

Today, as everyone knows, there is a far wider use of sources of radiation. The legislation must, therefore, be brought up to date. The new bill is an improvement over the old. Still, Quebec has voiced certain concerns relating to workers in the nuclear industry who were not covered by either the Canada Labour Code or any provincial legislation.

This legal vacuum posed certain safety problems, in nuclear plants for instance. The Act to amend the Canada Labour Code, passed this March 26, filled the need. It also contains the concept that a person may not be held responsible for an incident if he or she has taken all reasonable steps.

But here again, we must agree on the meaning of the word reasonable. Who is going to define it? I do not think we can be half reasonable. There are however a number of questions to be answered when we look to the courts of law for an exact definition of the criteria of the word reasonable. As for the expression "exercise diligence", "diligence" is a big word, but it must be clarified in this legislation, in the application of the standards in effect, to prevent an error occurring.

The Bloc Quebecois would like this to be included in Bill C-23, as it is in the Canadian Environmental Protection Act.

The Canadian commission would also monitor the use of instruments with a radioactive component. Hospitals also use radioactive equipment in certain treatments and diagnoses. The commission would inspect this equipment and ensure it meets safety standards. Business does its own inspections and sends samples to the experts on the commission. Both large and small and medium size business do so.

The commission claims to charge companies using its radioactive source services the actual cost of the inspection. However, certain companies claim that the federal government is not doing everything in its power and that, very often, it is too expensive. Therefore, business has a different story.

The big power companies argue that it is the consumers who end up paying for the ever-increasing fees set by the commission.

We are also in favour of cost recovery so that a balance can be struck. Annual fee increases would, I feel, be improper. A commission like this one is sometimes used to generate profits, even when the fees are said to serve other purposes.

This bill should require the commission to consult with licensees and consider their views before imposing or raising user fees.

This, of course, is a sensitive issue. Some argue that the safety benefits are priceless, that safety standards could always be more rigorous, regardless of the implementation costs. But there is a limit. Few people feel that a regulation's advantages and disadvantages should be assessed before it is imposed on governments, businesses and individuals.

The Bloc Quebecois recognizes the need to act very carefully in this regard, as well as the risk of giving too much weight to economic interests compared to the significant safety needs. Let me give you an example. I was in committee earlier and mention was made of imposing a tax to register small boats such as pedal boats. This shows how a government can take advantage of the people at any time. A supposedly noble motive turns into a money grab. The initially noble motive becomes perverted.

It is, however, necessary to consider the possibility that the commission may have the mandate to conduct its own cost-benefit analysis of the regulations and standards it applies and intends to apply in the future. This would better protect the interests of businesses and their customers.

A number of conclusions can be drawn from the many nuclear disasters that have occurred around the world. It can be said that we all played sorcerer's apprentice with nuclear energy.

In certain respects, we went much too fast. We did not have the expertise, but we thought it would be the best form of energy in the world. We are paying the price today.

Man has played sorcerer's apprentice with some extremely dangerous products. We became involved in the production of nuclear energy without being able to effectively deal with the consequences. We became involved in the development and production of nuclear energy without really knowing all the facts. We generated tons of nuclear waste without being able to process them effectively, and that is a tragedy.

Our governments have failed to effectively manage health and environmental hazards. Our governments also proved to be incapable of exercising effective control. It is no wonder that, every time an attempt is made to develop or use new nuclear technologies, environmental organizations cry out against the idea and the public itself is wary, and rightly so.

We must not overlook the fact that the nuclear arsenal currently available worldwide could totally destruct humanity and the public is perfectly aware of this. I would not take much to blow up the planet, just one madman, and in this world of ours there is no lack of madmen.

We all know that there are huge stocks of nuclear weapons, plutonium and heavy water in Russia, and that our governments are afraid a black market might develop. Non democratic countries and terrorist groups could then have access to atomic weapons or anything they need to build such weapons.

How can we expect those who develop and sell new technologies to be able to exercise control? In a great many cases, they should exercise control but do not even have this control they should be exercising.

It took the federal government 50 years to come to the realization that this ill-conceived legislation does not adequately protect the people of Quebec and Canada. How do you expect nuclear wary people to trust this government and the new commission after that? Even with the right tools, will the commission be able to ensure adequate monitoring?

It will also be difficult to restore public confidence. I just cannot believe that passing this bill will solve all our problems. Prudence dictates we must give ourselves monitoring standards. In fact I suspect this government is trying to make us forget about the Prime Minister's last visit to Russia, when the purchase of nuclear waste to be processed in Canada was discussed. Members will recall that there had been an outcry over this decision. And for a very good reason.

The government could probably have resolved another problem by dealing with the nuclear energy issue and introducing a bill on this subject. It is clear from analyzing nuclear energy research and development investments made in Canada that almost all the economic benefits in that area go to the same province, and this province, as you know, is Ontario.

In Quebec, we inherited the unemployment insurance-which I call and will always call poverty insurance-while Ontario gets money for research and development. We are still, unfortunately, the forgotten ones.

Who, in this federation, benefits as much from the federal government's generosity? Who else in this federation has such an interest in seeing Atomic Energy of Canada maintained? Who else in this federation benefits as much from the spinoffs of this industry? No one else. Ontario is the only one.

Had this government been serious in its approach, it would have seized the opportunity to look at this issue. The government greatly favours the development of nuclear energy, but does so only as a service to the Ontario industry.

While amending the current act, the government should make a formal commitment to better distribute its R and D money between the provinces, particularly those which receive the least, such as Quebec.

But the government did just the opposite when it recently announced the closing of EACL regional offices in Montreal. Montreal was hit again, not to mention the decision affecting Varennes and before that, the Maurice-Lamontagne Institute.

I would also have liked to see the government clearly affirm its will to promote R and D for peaceful uses of nuclear energy. As we know, nuclear energy can be used for the best and for the worst purposes. It can be useful and it can kill. It can save lives and it can eliminate thousands.

The public will only accept atomic energy when it will see its peaceful applications and its usefulness in everyday life.

It will only accept atomic energy when it will see that the government gave itself the means to control almost perfectly-I am tempted to leave out the word almost, but let us keep a margin for human error-all the risks related to its use and its development.

Another important problem we should have been able to tackle openly in considering this bill in the House is the financing of Atomic Energy of Canada, the financing of CANDU reactors throughout the world. Financially, Atomic Energy of Canada is just as much of a bottomless pit as the Hibernia project off Newfoundland may turn out to be.

Since this agency was created, billions of dollars have been sunk into it, and the government is only able to sell CANDU reactors by

financing them with money from Canadian and Quebec taxpayers. If that is not a scandal, what is?

In reality, the sale of CANDU reactors, with their supposedly safe technology, is nothing more than a clever way of subsidizing Atomic Energy of Canada. This government would have done better to overhaul Atomic Energy of Canada's operating methods. The days when the government could squander taxpayers' money have long gone, and gone, I hope, forever.

When a government slashes employment insurance, unemployment insurance, and gets ready to cut pensions and OAS, when a government attacks the poorest members of society, it should first clean up its own act.

Yes, Bill C-23 represents a step forward. The Bloc Quebecois will vote in favour of this bill.

I pointed out a number of things, and some amendments could probably be made.

I am still critical of the fact that this bill should have been presented 10, 15 or 20 years ago, and at least at the beginning of this Legislature. But we we always have to wait. At a certain point, the government wakes up, but it is always ordinary citizens that get it started. In other words, this government needs a good push before it says: "Oh dear, we have not been careful enough. For 50 years now, safety has been lacking in the nuclear field". In 1996, they told themselves it was time to get moving.

This government is like that. The preceding government was no better. So, listen to the opposition for a bit longer. We are making some very good suggestions, because we listen more carefully to our constituents, and our constituents have a lot to tell us. I say that the average citizen is incredibly wise.

When in power, a governement realizes that it is inevitably drawn away from the people. After three or four years, it realizes that the people are on one side and it is on the other. At this point in time, those who represent the people best are, of course, the opposition parties, and particularly the official opposition because it does not lean to the far right. When the left has good ideas, they are well received, when the right has good ideas, they are also well received. The important thing here is good ideas.

I will conclude by saying that this bill is a good bill and that it is long overdue. We will follow it closely because a bill in itself is not much, what counts is the way it is implemented. In that regard, we will be there to call the government to order if need be.