House of Commons Hansard #60 of the 35th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was fees.

Topics

Oceans ActGovernment Orders

June 12th, 1996 / 3:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

The hon. member for Richelieu has the floor to conclude his speech.

Oceans ActGovernment Orders

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Louis Plamondon Bloc Richelieu, QC

Madam Speaker, around 9 o'clock last night, I received the unanimous consent of the House to complete my speech. As the Chair interrupted my speech at 9.30 p.m., I have the opportunity today to complete my speech on the motions in Group No. 11 put forward by the Liberal Party.

I will not only conclude my speech, but also recap the reasons behind our amendments to this bill. The government seems uncomfortable with its bill, for it could not get any Liberal member yesterday to explain the relevance of these amendments and of the bill itself.

The Bloc Quebecois reiterated the reasons behind its proposed amendments to this bill yesterday and we will do so again, forcefully, today. This hastily introduced bill does not meet the people's demands, the government's objective to cut spending, or users' expectations. Yet, users told the committee they were ready to share costs, provided this is done in a reasonable manner and they can specify what their needs are in relation to the fee structure, navigational aids on the St. Lawrence, as well as icebreaking and dredging.

What hurts stakeholders is that the government based its bill on the IBI report, which in no way reflects the reality. All the witnesses who appeared before the committee said they were appalled to see that the government's hare-brained bill is based on that report.

This unfair bill has been condemned not only by members of the opposition, and not for partisan purposes, but also, for logical reasons, by well-known associations that realize what a heavy price

they will have to pay, in economic terms. This could lead to enormous job losses along the St. Lawrence.

This bill will result in unfair competition, making it impossible for us to compete with ports in Halifax and Philadelphia. The unfair fee structure will compromise any expansion plan for these businesses and even threaten their very existence.

Speaking of the unfair fee structure, it is funny to hear the minister invoke fairness and the user-pay principle to justify the division of Canada into the three regions referred to in this bill.

If we read this proposal, we notice that all the regions, and particularly those of the St. Lawrence and the Great Lakes, will pay part of the marine services provided to Newfoundland, which happens to be the province of origin of the minister responsible.

Ships going to Newfoundland will benefit from substantial rebates paid for in part by ships elsewhere. Moreover, according to the minister's policy, the port of Churchill, in Manitoba, would not have to pay for coast guard services.

The bill creates a situation which could be described like this: "Look, since you are my friend, I will give you an exemption. This port is in my riding, so it will get an exemption. We are indebted to that region, so we will also give it an exemption". And then: "The coast guard is under the responsibility of the transport department, but it will be transferred to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans". And finally: "You will have to pay for the costs related to the coast guard. Ports in the St. Lawrence will pay this amount, those in the second group will pay that amount, while those in the third group will pay that much", without knowing the impact of all this on the companies using these services. The government does not even know about the impact. No economic impact studies or economic forecasting were done to see what kind of operating cost increase companies will face.

This is what we object to, and we want the government to think things out thoroughly. After all, there is no urgency to establish a new policy which could greatly hurt the economy of a region, particularly Quebec. But the Liberal Party has a history of always targeting Quebec. Such is the story of the Liberals and their leader.

If the government could not find a single person to speak in favour of its bill, it is because there is something wrong with it. It is because people, and particularly the 21 Liberal members from Quebec, know this is a terrible blow to all Quebec businesses that will be affected by these changes.

The government cannot find a single speaker. Last night, we kept asking for a Liberal member to give us one reason why motions in Group No. 11 should be passed, in fact not only those motions, but all the other ones, the bill itself. We were interested in the justification for the bill, but nobody wanted to explain it to us.

I can understand why Liberal members would hide behind their desks and not want to comment on such an unacceptable bill. I can also understand that they would see this bill as breaking their promises, the promises in the red book. The bottom line is that they are ashamed to have to appear in the House to defend a bill like this one.

This bill has been rejected by all the people directly affected by the amendments, in other words the users, and it has also been rejected by the general public, when they see how unfair it is for ports in the St. Lawrence. This unfairness will reduce, not to say eliminate, the competitiveness of affected businesses.

We therefore say: Let us wait a few months, go back to committee and, instead of hiring a firm like IBI, whose report just went through the motions, make sure that users, all those who are affected or who believe in the survival of shipping, who believe in the development of ports along the St. Lawrence, who believe in a fairer distribution of costs, are consulted. We agree with the government that costs must be reduced, but why is this not done by charging according to dimensions and not tonnage, for instance?

If we heard today that tariffs would be set according to the dimensions of vessels, all regions would be treated equitably. But no, the tariff goes by tonnage. Certain regions do mostly transhipment, while others are primarily unloading points. Adopting a different fee structure for every region would hurt and do a flagrant injustice to Quebec ports.

In this regard, there is talk of going back to the table, looking at the issues and taking the time to think about them. If the government is so keen on seeing the bill passed at report stage today, it should at least have the decency to defer third reading until the fall.

This would give users time to lobby the minister, to try to get him out of his office and convince him to change his decision. This would also give him the time to consult the members of his own party and to come back in the fall and say that, through certain procedures, the bill can be amended at third reading to make it more acceptable.

This is quite simple. Like some of their Liberal colleagues, the members of our own party regularly refuse to come to the House to speak to this bill because they are so ashamed of it. Furthermore, what can we say once we realize the new fee structure is unfair to a given region of Canada? Since there are so many disputes, we should go back to the drawing board. Let us take this month to consider the issue more carefully, now that all the parties are aware of the problems, that the responsibilities for dredging, ice breaking operations and other fee-generating operations to be carried out on

the St. Lawrence will be reassigned, that the costs will be shared by users.

However, let us make sure that users will not be adversely affected and forced to declare bankruptcy, shut down their operations, or put projects on hold, as is the case for some companies in the Sorel area, such as Fagen, and also Richardson, the grain elevator company, which are greatly concerned that the new fee structure might affect their projects for the future. These companies were prepared to invest a lot in the Sorel region.

I could also talk about my riding, in the region of Bécancour, which has the largest industrial park. A major dock, entirely built by Quebec and used by all the industries in Bécancour's industrial park, will be hard hit. This will hurt, among other things, major industrial development projects in that park.

This fee structure could adversely affect one of the most important economic sectors in Canada and in Quebec, because of the minister's stubbornness. We say to the government: stop this stubbornness, postpone the adoption of this bill for a few months and listen, not to the official opposition or to the third party, but to those who are directly concerned.

Let us have the committee accept briefs, submissions and claims, to help the minister make a better decision in the fall. This is what the official opposition is asking. We are not doing this to stall the government's bill, but because the witnesses heard by the committee said that something had to be done and that the famous IBI report should be ignored.

I also read a release put out by the Montreal region, in addition to the one sent by the minister, saying that the city's economy might be significantly affected. It was not the Bloc Quebecois saying this. It was the president of the executive committee of the Conseil régional du développement de l'Île de Montréal, the president of the executive committee of the Montreal Urban Community, and Patrice Simard, president of the Metropolitan Montreal chamber of commerce. These are not sovereignists or members of the Bloc Quebecois. These are business people who want to work with the government to defray the cost of using the St. Lawrence Seaway, as well as look at the new fee structure and so on. They are prepared to pay, but they say that the government is on the wrong track.

They sent official requests to the Canadian government and obtained the consensus of the shipping industry to submit this document to the government, which has turned a deaf ear and wants absolutely nothing to do with it. It is stubbornly going ahead with a bill that is not at all in the interest of those it claims it wants to protect.

As for what is at stake for Quebec and for Montreal, this letter said: "Shipping is a fundamental activity for the economy of Quebec. All port activities in Quebec will be affected by the proposed fee structure". This was what Mr. Ménard, the minister responsible for Montreal Island, had to say.

The port of Montreal handles 20 million tonnes of cargo per year. I said it yesterday and I say it again today, 726,000 containers go through the port each year. All this activity has created 14,000 direct and indirect jobs, in addition to generating revenues of $1.2 billion annually. Many industries in Quebec are dependent on this mode of supply.

Furthermore, the port of Montreal is in stiff competition with ports on the eastern American seaboard. Fifty per cent of Montreal's container traffic has as either its point of origin or its destination the industrialized regions of the U.S., the Midwest, New York State, New England. Since 60 per cent of goods passing through the port of Montreal are then loaded onto rail cars to be shipped to various destinations across the continent, the minister's planned fees will also have a negative economic impact on Montreal's rail traffic. The Canadian government's projected charges are a threat to the port of Montreal's competitive position in the U.S. shipping market, as well as to the supply lines for Quebec industries.

Such was the conclusion of the minister who joined forces with the group I have just referred to in criticizing the bill. It is not a member of the official opposition who is today asking the government to change its tune and not blow the shipping industry out of the water. Some 14,000 direct and indirect jobs in Montreal will be affected, not to mention those in all the ports along the St. Lawrence. They are the reason I am asking the minister on their behalf today to listen carefully to what I have to say.

Yesterday, the House allowed me to speak longer in order to make the reasons for our actions clear to the government. I could repeat them here, since you offer me the opportunity and the time. The Bloc Quebecois has issued several press releases as a result of our consultations and the mail and phone input we have received. Our correspondents were asking the Bloc Quebecois to save them from this insensitive government. We have issued our press releases in order to make the minister aware of the situation. But since he continues to turn a deaf ear, now the press has got into the act.

Look at what the business publication Les affaires used as a headline. This is not a Bloc Quebecois publication, a Parti Quebecois publication, a sovereignist publication. It chose as its headline: ``The fee scale proposed by the Coast Guard primarily penalizes the users of the St. Lawrence. The St. Lawrence shipping community sees this as a concession to the Halifax lobby''. This minister has been like a weather vane, letting himself be turned this way and that, first promising to protect this or that port, and then blowing in still another direction when the west wants this or that port

protected. Then he had to find the money, so he got the idea to raise the charges for Quebec ports.

Its always the same, whether the government is Liberal or Conservative, the insensitivity to the Quebec reality is unchanged. It is worse when it is a Liberal government. Almost all of the harm done to Quebec by the federalist regime has had the Liberals behind it, the present leader of that party in particular.

In this article, the journalist for Les Affaires spoke of all the reactions along the North Shore, the economic threat, the costs industries would have to recover. Once again, we must quote the minister, for he ought to take heed and to defer the adoption of this bill on third reading at least until the fall, by which time he will have had the opportunity to find out more about the harmful effects of the bill.

On Saturday, March 16, a headline in La Presse read: ``Maritime services: Quebec's bill goes up''. No one can say that La Presse is a Bloc Quebecois publication, an official opposition publication. It is the voice of Power Corporation, of the Liberals. Their very own paper is telling them that they are overdoing it in raising the charges to Quebec.

The columnist, Mr. Arcand, goes on to say: "Each revision hits Quebec a little harder". Quoting Mr. Massicotte, he gives examples of the charges proposed by the Coast Guard for maintaining navigational aids such as buoys, lighthouses, shipping control, radio beacons.

The latest Coast Guard proposal, dated February 26, proposed a set rate for Canadian vessels of $3.40 per ton gross tonnage, or in other words per 100 cubic feet of cargo. With this proposal, the charge would rise to $4.48. A laker has a gross tonnage of 25,000, which would mean $112,000 per ship for navigation aids alone.

With this amendment, one vessel alone would have to pay $112,000 more a year. Clearly things are unfair, costs are being allocated crazily. We must come back to reality and have this changed.

"In the context of cut-throat competition with east coast American ports and even those of the Mississippi", the journalist went on to say, "many shipowners, exporters and importers fear that the St. Lawrence River is becoming too expensive. Montreal could lose a lot of traffic". The cost will stop the ports from competing. And what will the ships do? They will head to Philadelphia and the east coast. This bill will harm industry in Quebec and Canada and will send it to the United States.

This is perhaps what free trade is understood to be. This is not free trade was supposed to be, and we can talk about it. While they were in opposition, for eight years, throughout the debate on free trade, even during the electoral campaign, the Liberals were tearing at their clothes in an expression of rejection. Once in office, they were the first to sign NAFTA.

Yesterday, when the President of Mexico was praising free trade, the Prime Minister was applauding non stop. The Liberal Party has always been the party of double speak: one way for the electoral campaign and one for after their election.

In another vein, The Globe and Mail said: Making deal to replace GST evading Ottawa''. Even that paper spoke of the injustice this bill creates. Raymond Giroux, a journalist for <em>Le Soleil</em> said:A gunboat on the St. Lawrence''. That says a mouthful.

It is not a Bloc member who said that, but a journalist who has been following the economic situation for years, who has an in depth knowledge of this issue, who has consulted users, the public, read the documents submitted to the committee and heard the very accurate arguments presented by the critic for our party, the member for Gaspé.

Our colleague from Gaspé too has conducted many consultations; in an attempt to get the government to see it was on the wrong track, he gave an exceptional speech when this bill was first introduced.

I mentioned the member for Gaspé, but I should also talk about the fascinating speech the member for Trois-Rivières gave last night. As we know, he is a former industrial commissioner, a senior official in the Quebec government. Yesterday, in 10 minutes, my illustrious colleague from Trois-Rivières briefly summarized the problem in eloquent terms indeed. It seems to me that the few Liberal members who were here were amazed at the logic of his arguments since they were nodding in approval without even realizing it.

As I was saying before, my illustrious colleague has spent many hours researching this subject. In Miami, they throw rats on the ice during hockey games; for our part, we are proud to have our own book worm, our expert in research, our friend from Trois-Rivières. He is so good that now our party's research branch consults him, not the other way around. That says a lot.

Yesterday, the member for Trois-Rivières pretty much covered all aspects of the problem in just a few minutes. I must also congratulate the member for Châteauguay who, after the member for Trois-Rivières, gave his own description from another angle, reviewing the issue from the Montreal point of view and explaining how terrible the impact of that bill would be for the Montreal region.

We all know the numerous observations of the member for Lévis enlightened all members in the House; we hope they were also

useful for the minister and will help him decide to postpone the passing of this bill for a few months.

The member for Lévis spoke for several minutes after the brilliant performance of the member for Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup, and we had the impression that the government finally understood because no Liberal member asked to be heard. Not one member spoke in favour of the government's bill. The whip raised his arms to the sky and tried to convince a Liberal member to speak for the bill, but he found no one. Nobody dared to support that bill. This is very significant.

When a government party cannot find a single speaker to support a bill in such a serious debate, at the end of a session when the hours are extended hours because the government said the matter was urgent, when not one government member will accept to work overtime to speak in favour of this supposedly urgent bill, then there is a problem. Not one speaker from the Liberal Party has risen in support of this bill.

Of course, I understand them, they are ashamed. They are getting ready to end a difficult year, a year of shame, of broken promises, a year, in fact, in their party's image, a party that, during the election campaign, can promise anything, but once in power, forgets its promises and is content to encourage its buddies to make a few backstage deals.

The former heritage minister was good at that; the defence minister, with a $150,000 contract given to a buddy, is good at that; the immigration minister, who uses his discretionary powers and signs as a priority documents allowing into Canada criminal immigrants who had been refused under the usual rules, is also good at that. So, this is a "scheming" government, a government unable to make the decisions that would satisfy the people as a whole and, in this case, users as a whole.

Actually, this bill could go in the direction that all the people want, that is, cost reduction in all departments, but, at the same time, this reduction should not hinder industry, which creates jobs. As I said earlier, it is not a few jobs, but 14,000 jobs in the Montreal area that are affected.

I talked earlier about the reporter from the newspaper Le Soleil who wrote, and I will conclude here: ``Ottawa has managed until now to keep the lid on this volatile issue. The St. Lawrence River will come out a loser, unless premier Bouchard and the business community react strong and loud. Ottawa will not understand anything else''.

This was not said by the Bloc or the Parti Québécois, but by a journalist at Le Soleil , who, after analyzing the situation, concluded it would be disastrous for the St. Lawrence if this bill was passed.

I would like to have another hour to comment more fully on this bill, and my colleagues told me they, too, have more to say. I know the hon. member for Champlain, for example, a former businessman with experience in this area, could shed new light on this issue for the government. He has had frequent business dealings with St. Lawrence users. In that regard, this brilliant businessman and dedicated member for Champlain will have an opportunity later to speak to this bill.

That is why I wish I had a few more hours, with the unanimous consent of the House, to explain things to the government and the minister, but I will conclude, to leave some time for the hon. members for Lévis, Trois-Rivières, Gaspé, Champlain, and other ridings to add their own voices, the voices of their regions and, in fact, the voice of common sense.

In closing, I hope that, if the government stubbornly refuses to withdraw its amendments, it will at least have the decency and sensitivity to defer third reading until the fall. I challenge it to do that. You will then see all the lobbying that will be done to make it realize that this bill needs major amendments.

Oceans ActGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

According to the agreement, Motion No. 67 in Group No. 11 is deemed to have been put to a vote and the recorded division is deemed to have been requested and deferred.

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

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4:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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Some hon. members

No.

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4:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

All those in favour will please say yea.

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Some hon. members

Yea.

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The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

All those opposed will please say nay.

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Some hon. members

Nay.

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The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Oceans ActGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

The recorded division on the motion stands deferred.

Debate is now on Group No. 12, which includes Motions Nos. 76, 78, 80, 82 and 88.

Oceans ActGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Yvan Bernier Bloc Gaspé, QC

moved:

Motion No. 76

That Bill C-26, in Clause 47, be amended by replacing line 1, on page 30, with the following:

"47. (1) The Minister may, subject to section 49.1 and to any".

Motion No. 78

That Bill C-26, in Clause 48, be amended by replacing line 14, on page 30, with the following:

"48. The Minister may, subject to section 49.1 and to any".

Motion No. 80

That Bill C-26, in Clause 49, be amended by replacing line 22, on page 30, with the following:

"49. (1) The Minister may, subject to section 49.1 and to any".

Motion No. 82

That Bill C-26 be amended by adding after line 35, on page 30, the following new Clause:

"49.1 The fixing of fees under sections 47, 48 and 49 is subject to adoption by the House of Commons of a resolution debated for three hours in the ordinary course of the business of the House."

Motion No. 88

That Bill C-26, in Clause 51, be amended by replacing line 6, on page 31, with the following:

"51. The standing committee may make regula-".

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4:15 p.m.

Vancouver Quadra B.C.

Liberal

Ted McWhinney LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Fisheries and Oceans

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to resume this marathon debate which has already lasted three afternoons, 11 hours, 77 motions and as I recollect-my counting I think is accurate-11 orators in a row from the opposition party.

There has been some comment made here on the absence of interventions but one should always remember that one gains nothing by iteration and reiteration if nothing new is said. When the debate opened on the first evening, I was very much taken by the witty and informative address of the hon. member for Chambly, by the vigorous imagination of the member for Gaspé, but I have to report, not in anger but with sadness, a certain decline in quality. That comes from repetition. It seemed to me that the ghosts who operate in this Chamber and outside may have become tired. Certainly by last night I felt tiredness had set in with the ghosts.

I was hoping in the spirit of the first evening when the member for Chambly gave us as the sacerdos musarum, the carmina non prius audita, the new songs, new visions, new attitudes that something in the same vein would continue. Instead we have had Mount Pelion piled on Mount Ossa in the poet Flaccus' words, forgetting that it is not by the number of speeches, it is by the weight and content. In a certain sense we are returning again and again to the same themes. I see no particular point in adding to these labours of Sisyphus beyond saying that in the debate from now on, could we hope for something new, something rather exciting, something not very tiring?

To comment specifically on Group No. 12 which has been put forward by the hon. member for Gaspé and which pertain to the fee setting provisions of the oceans act, Motion No. 76 modifies clause 47 which provides the minister with the authority to fix fees for a service or use of a governmental facility provided under the oceans act. Motion No. 78 modifies clause 48 which provides the authority to fix fees in respect of products, rights and privileges provided under the oceans act. Motion No. 80 modifies clause 49, according to which the minister may set fees for regulatory processes or approval provided under this act.

These motions would subject the ministerial fee setting authority to a condition outlined in Motion No. 82, namely that the House of Commons be required to adopt a resolution debated for three hours in its ordinary course of business before a fee could be fixed.

This amendment in our view would clutter House business and cause delays and additional administrative processes when this government is committed to modernizing Parliament, to streamlining its internal processes. That would be a step backward.

In any case, the intent of these motions is already addressed in existing governmental policy. There already exists a regulatory parliamentary review process. It is government policy to consult with affected users on any fees proposed. This serves to ensure the minister is in touch with the views of his clients.

Clause 50 of the bill clearly describes the consultation requirements the minister must comply with before fixing a fee. The clause also provides for the referral of fiscal regulations to the Standing Joint Committee on the Scrutiny of Regulations.

Quite obviously Motions Nos. 76, 77, 78 and 80 serve no purpose and should be defeated.

The last motion in this group, Motion No. 82, proposes to authorize the standing committee to make regulations relating to to the minister's powers to fix fees. I have already spoken of this neo-Montesquieuian confusion of powers when of course we respect the separation of powers as a basic issue of constitutionalism. Do not try to mix up legislative and executive powers unless you have a clear vision of where you are going. In this sense the motion is not well thought out and does not deserve support.

Treasury Board is the central federal authority mandated to make regulations pertaining to fiscal issues. The board is there to ensure consistency and fairness in regulations such as those provided under the oceans act.

The Bloc motion implies that Treasury Board is not ensuring this consistency and fairness and suggests the authority to make fiscal regulations should be exercised by a standing committee. This is entirely contrary to government policy and established parliamentary practice. Indeed in its aspect of all power to the assembly, it is

what we might refer to in our law schools as a Henry VIII clause. Need I say any more?

All of the motions in this group should be defeated. The House is here to improve the quality of the legislation put before it, not to hinder the progress of government. I hope I have not spoken too long because I do not want to set a bad example for this House. Brevity is the art of wit.

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4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Yvan Bernier Bloc Gaspé, QC

Madam Speaker, it is always with pleasure that I rise to speak when the subject-matter of the bill under consideration is close to my heart. The hon. member for Vancouver Quadra and parliamentary secretary, who knows the customs and practices of this House as well as I do, will have to graciously accept, as part of his parliamentary duties, the fact that the hon. member for Richelieu has decided to use not only all the time he was allotted, but time he was given by unanimous consent of this House. I think it is very good for parliamentary relations that the system allows this.

You know, Mr. Parliamentary Secretary, how things work here-

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4:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

Excuse me, you must always address the Chair.

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4:20 p.m.

Bloc

Yvan Bernier Bloc Gaspé, QC

I apologize, Madam Speaker. I was not trying to initiate a conversation between the parliamentary secretary and myself. The point I would like to put across, through the Chair, is that British parliamentary rules are such that the only way members of Parliament can express their views and make themselves heard of the government is through the procedures made available to them in Parliament. From time to time, our friends opposite may find their decisions are not approved as fast as they would like. What can I say? It goes with the territory.

Now, coming back to Group No. 12. As the official opposition critic, the Bloc Quebecois critic on this matter, I would like to discuss the substance of the motions in Group No. 12. The substance is quite simple to understand.

I will not read them in full, but we are talking about five motions tabled by the Bloc. The gist of these motions is that, whenever the minister's power to fix fees is referred to in clauses 47, 48 and 49, the Bloc Quebecois, the official opposition, wants to promote transparency, as it has been its goal since the beginning of the proceedings at report stage of Bill C-26.

Such transparency would be ensured by Motion No. 82, which reflects the other ones, and which provides, as regards the minister's power to fix fees:

That Bill C-26 be amended by adding after line 35, on page 30, the following new Clause:

"49.1 The fixing of fees under sections 47, 48 and 49 is subject to adoption by the House of Commons of a resolution debated for three hours in the ordinary course of the business of the House."

The purpose of this motion is to promote transparency and to provide all elected members of the Canadian Parliament an opportunity to express themselves, regardless of their political affiliation. Such a procedure would only require one afternoon, in fact three hours. It would in no way delay any other decision which the minister may make.

I hope it was not the minister's intention to fix these fees in secret. The minister must give members of this House the opportunity to express their views.

We could discuss the issue for a long time, or we could, as the hon. member for Richelieu did on behalf of the Bloc Quebecois, ask the government to postpone the bill at least until the fall, and to review its form as well as its content.

My goal here is to get the message across. The spirit of the letter must be preserved. If we manage to do that, we will have fewer problems in administering the act afterwards. The hon. member for Vancouver Quadra pointed it out to the Chair. The member for Gaspé is also trying to make the best of the situation by improving the bill, even thogh the Bloc Quebecois is devoted to sovereignty. But as long as we are a part of Canada, I will try to improve this bill, because it will apply to Quebecers too.

Whatever the political suasion of people in my party or of Quebecers in general, I will do whatever I can to make laws of this Parliament easier to implement and to live with. I urge hon. members to read once more motion No. 82, which underlies all of this, and see for themselves that openness is our goal.

I have even been generous enough to suggest a three-hour debate, which is really not long, you have to admit. It would be more of a technicality, but at least, the exercise would take place. Nobody in Canada could suggest that we have not given it a try. But time flies, and since a number of my colleagues would like to speak to Group No. 12, I will yield the floor to the next speaker.

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4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Réjean Lefebvre Bloc Champlain, QC

Madam Speaker, the Minister of Fisheries has unilaterally decided to charge the shipping industry fees for Coast Guard services, including the provision of aids to navigation and ice breaking services. Clauses 41, 47, and 52 of Bill C-26 give the minister the power to charge these fees.

Several amendments to these clauses were put forward by the Bloc Quebecois for the following reasons: to make the fees

principle more equitable and to force the minister to co-operate with the industry and the provinces before fixing or increasing the fees. These changes would prevent the minister from making unilateral decisions without holding public consultations, as he has done for the fees he wants to charge as of June 1996.

In fact, all the witnesses who appeared before the fisheries and oceans committee decried the decision making and consultation process of the Coast Guard, especially the fact that the minister went ahead with the fees without assessing the economic impact on the shipping industry and all the other industries that rely on shipping.

Also, 75 per cent of the witnesses asked the minister for a moratorium on the fees until the impact studies ordered by the Department of Fisheries come out next fall. The witnesses also recommended that the minister cooperate with the shipping industry in carrying out economic impact studies. Lastly, the St. Lawrence River and Great Lakes stakeholders reached a clear consensus against the minister's proposal which they, along with the Ontario and Quebec governments, found unacceptable.

Dismissing all these recommendations and objections, the minister is apparently determined to go ahead with this fee structure and does not care about its possibly devastating effect on jobs in the shipping industry, a very important sector of the Quebec economy.

Moreover, several questions on the department's fee structure policy remain unanswered. First of all, this whole policy is based on the regionalization that divides Canada into three regions: the West, the East and the St. Lawrence region. This rather artificial division was advanced by the Coast Guard under pressure by the maritimes and the West. Each new proposal by the Coast Guard means higher fees for boats in the St. Lawrence and Great Lakes region.

The minister mentioned fairness and the user-fee principle to justify this regional division. Yet, when we read the proposal, we see that all the regions and especially the St. Lawrence and Great Lakes area will pay part of the marine services to Newfoundland, which is the minister's province, since the boats that go there will get substantial reductions at the expense of boats in other regions. Moreover, according to the minister's policy, the port of Churchill, in Manitoba, will not have to pay for Coast Guard services.

Another major problem is that the St. Lawrence and Great Lakes ports are increasingly less competitive than American ports. On the one hand, boats using the St. Lawrence Seaway to go to the United States without stopping at any Canadian port will not pay for Coast Guard services, thus greatly threatening the competitiveness of the St. Lawrence and Great Lakes ports.

On the other, the user pay principle advocated by the minister is not respected in a number of instances, in particular for the ports of

Sept-Îles and Port-Cartier, which will pay up to $5 million annually for the use of a single buoy.

Finally, the user fees the minister would like to impose are only the tip of the iceberg, since they only include navigational aids such as buoys, lighthouses, and so on. The other services the department intends to charge for are the dredging of Seaway harbours and ice breaking in waterways.

These other fees may turn out to be much higher than those for navigational aids, and there is reason to be concerned about the survival and ability to compete of ports along the St. Lawrence, particularly the port of Montreal and a number of ports in the regions such as those of Matane, Rimouski and Trois-Rivières.

I would like to take this opportunity to comment on the effects of this fee structure in my riding, the riding of Champlain, on pleasure boats, pedal boats and other small craft. These should be exempt from this tax in disguise. The riding of Champlain abounds in hunting spots and lakes and is known as a tourist centre.

This disguised tax, or user fee structure as the government calls it, will harm the tourist industry, which provides the riding with jobs it needs to survive. Imagine the impact of charging user fees for pleasure boats on the economy of a region such as mine. We do not yet have all the details, but there is talk of charging fees for pedal boats and sailboards. I do not know where they will hang the plates, but I am sure they will think of something.

You can imagine what fees on rowboats and canoes will do to the tourist industry in my region. Small and medium sized businesses which depend on the rental of this kind of equipment during the summer season will have to pay these fees. Will they have to be paid annually, every five years, every four years or every three years? I do not yet know how it will work. We could have big surprises. Will these fees be progressive? All that to collect a few million dollars because the finance minister needs money. It is absolutely outrageous!

And think about what it will cost to collect that money. How will the government find all the people who own a pedalboat, a sailboard, a rowboat or a canoe? It is practically impossible and unmanageable. Again, in the end, it will be the small and middle income people who will pay the bill, who will pay the price for the federal government's financial problems. That is why the Bloc Quebecois and myself, who represent the riding of Champlain, will oppose Bill C-26.

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4:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as

follows: the hon. member for Lévis-Quebec Bridge; the hon. member for Regina-Lumsden-Hollinger Inc.

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4:35 p.m.

Reform

Mike Scott Reform Skeena, BC

Madam Speaker, this bill is divided into three major sections. Part III, with which we are dealing now, describes the powers of the minister. The amendments in this group, and many of the amendments being proposed in other groupings dealing with part III, describe limits to the minister's power.

Motions Nos. 76, 78, 80 and 82 limit the minister's power. These amendments state that any changes to the regulations with respect to fees or other parts of the bill must be debated in the House of Commons for three hours prior to being enforced or enacted.

I cannot see any reason why the House would not support these amendments. I commend my friend, the hon. member for Gaspé, for moving them. When we seek to limit the power of government, we end up doing Canadians a service.

I am not saying that the minister is not acting in good faith or not trying to do the best job he or she can, whoever the minister of the day is, but it is important that there are limitations on the minister's powers.

In this case, if the minister chooses by regulation to increase or change the fee structure, it will be debated in the House for three hours. That will give Canadians and their representatives an opportunity to have some discussion before it takes place. Frankly, I cannot see any reason why the House would not support these amendments. Certainly Reform will be supporting them.

Reform will not be supporting Motion No. 88 because it proposes that the standing committee would be the body to fix fees in the future. I do not have a great deal of parliamentary experience but I do not believe that standing committees are used in any other areas to fix fees. I do not believe it is appropriate for the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans to be fixing fees with respect to regulations in this legislation.

It is appropriate for the standing committee to review changes to regulations. I am certainly in favour of having the fee regulation process opened up so that everybody can see how it works and provide their input prior to the changes being made.

However, I do not see the standing committee being the body to actually draft the regulatory changes or make the changes to fee structures and so on in the future. I simply do not believe that the standing committee is the appropriate body to do that.

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4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Rocheleau Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to speak again in this debate, this time on the motions in Group No. 12.

But before I go any further, with your permission, Madam Speaker, I would like to pay special tribute to our venerable colleague, the member for Richelieu, who surpassed himself these past few hours, last night especially, when he made an improvised speech that lasted a good half hour and in which he succeeded in casting the government in a bad light and in forcing it to think. The few members who were around, even those in the government members' lobby, heard the relevant and judicious speech delivered by our colleague.

We saw how his experience as a former Conservative member served him well because he knows the rules of procedure. We saw how generous the member for Richelieu is, deep down inside, because he succeeded in rallying all the members present, as well as all those representing the region that will be affected by the bill. This man is really a natural leader.

I would now like to recall the principal points of the speech I made last night in the House. First, the whole process by which the government presented this bill is questionable, very negative and lacks transparency, starting with the study made by a private firm called IBI, study that was denounced and ridiculed by all kinds of experts, all interested parties and all stakeholders. As I mentioned yesterday, one witness who appeared before the committee went as far as to say that this report was not worth the paper it was written on, which says a lot.

It is all the more serious not only because the report was paid for by the public purse, but also because this document that is not recognized by the people involved forms the basis of the minister's rationale for implementing these fees. So if we want a healthy debate where everybody agrees on the general parameters, we are off to a very bad start. We do not have this basis for discussion since the document in question is not recognized by the people involved.

Then, under pressure from the official opposition, the fisheries and oceans committee heard witnesses. There again we saw the same attitude on the part of the government, an attitude of non transparency, of narrowmindedness, a kind of military attitude in some way-it is understandable-from the commissioner to the minister, who both happen to have the same profile. It is an attitude of non openness to the very sensible and very sincere arguments presented by witnesses who came maybe not to talk about their survival, but about good management, in the public interest.

Unfortunately, our colleagues opposite did not listen seriously to the evidence presented to them and made absolutely no effort to follow up on it. There was a huge gap between the comments made by the commissioner of the coast guard, our first witness-I sat on this committee as an associate member-and the comments made by the other witnesses, the users, who came to criticize the commissioner's position and to tell us how they perceived the situation and how they intended to co-operate. In point of fact, by this operation, the government is trying to get money from

users-though we do not know at what cost and what the impact it will have-to the tune of $160 million by the year 2000, in four years.

Witnesses mentioned three major grievances concerning the approach adopted by the government and it is obvious users are also upset for three basic reasons. First, no impact study was done to evaluate the impact of the fee structure although several witnesses talked about the potentially destructive effects of this new fee structure. Secondly, no detailed description has been given of services actually provided by the Coast Guard to users, despite the fact that the term user-payer is used. The government wants them to pay because they use services but there is not precise description of those services. I find that approach a bit clumsy and arrogant. If they said: "From now on, you will have to pay a precise fee for such and such a service", that could facilitate a positive dialogue between the parties. Instead, people are plainly told they are getting a service for which they will have to pay a given amount.

Finally, despite what users wanted, the Coast Guard made no effort, in their opinion-and this is the third complaint-to streamline its operations. This would have reduced potential costs to users all the more. These then are three aspects of the debate to bear in mind, because they illustrate the almost extemporaneous and extremely arbitrary position taken by the government in this matter.

Yesterday, I related a number of distressing facts, but I would like to carry on in this debate. It was said, among other things, that Canada is being arbitrarily divided into three regions with different rates for each: the west, the centre-Quebec and the Great Lakes-and the maritimes. Three different rates for three different regions, to the great chagrin of the federalist witnesses.

We were told that for a 25,000 tonne vessel-as the member for Richelieu said earlier-with respect only to aids to navigation-buoys-the cost would be $112,000 a year. That is awful. Imagine the shipowner with 12 or 15 ships. He will have to pay $112,000 per ship just for aids to navigation, the least expensive of the three items, the others being ice breaking-the most expensive-and dredging-of both the St. Lawrence and approaches to harbours and wharves. That means $112,000 for a single 25,000 tonne vessel, just for aids to navigation.

Another fact we should take into consideration is that a foreign vessel entering the largest inland waterway in the world-the St. Lawrence River-en route to an American port will pay nothing. There is no charge to such a vessel for aids to navigation and ice breaking, because it is not stopping in Canada, but going directly to the States. This will no doubt increase competition between American ports on the Great Lakes and the ports along the St. Lawrence. There will therefore be no charge to foreign vessels heading directly to the United States.

Another item that arose out of the committee's deliberations concerns ice breakers and ice. The fact is that, in the case of the ports along the North Shore, such as Baie-Comeau, Port-Cartier and Sept-Îles, there is no ice. There is no ice in Halifax, another major port, either. Except that user fees will be charged for ice-breakers in Port-Cartier, Sept-Îles and all along the North Shore whereas Halifax will not pay a cent for ice-breaking. Members must know that Halifax is the home port of the big ice-breakers that come all the way up to lake Saint-Pierre, where I come from, so the economic impact on the region will be dramatic.

Finally, I want to say a few words about Trois-Rivières, in my riding. For the port of Trois-Rivières only, the new fee schedule will entail additional costs of $500,000 per year for navigational aids and buoys alone, not including ice-breaking and dredging. This is awful and unacceptable. Everybody will have to pay these new fees even though there was no debate.

This measure is based on an accounting approach not even tempered by political sensibility and not taking socioeconomic consequences into account. We must put all our energies in denouncing such a politicy.

Hopefully the government will come to its senses and postpone until the fall third reading of this bill to allow all stakeholders to make their opinion known once and for all, after having heard from the minister and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. Hopefully the minister and his whole department will bow to public pressure and come to their senses in the best interests of everyone.

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4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Ghislain Lebel Bloc Chambly, QC

Madam Speaker, this is the third opportunity I have to address this bill and the amendments in Groups Nos. 11, 12 and 13.

Before beginning to seriously address this bill, I want to voice an objection against what the member for Vancouver Quadra said, despite the kind words he had for me. He said the last Bloc Quebecois speakers were running out of arguments. True, this is a political arena and we play the game. The member for Vancouver Quadra came to politics after an outstanding university career and he is fast learning the political role in this House.

However, he must recognize that the role of MPs, especially those of the party I represent, is to express their views and that this role is inalienable. Members of the Bloc Quebecois, at the risk of repeating themselves, properly exercise their parliamentary right to speak. It is about the only thing we have here.

I would like to point out to the member for Vancouver Quadra that we have been debating this bill, its inherent nature, for two days and that there are also Quebec members in his party. There are about 20 Liberal members from Quebec and they are absent from this debate. I do not mean they are not in the House. What I mean is they do not show any interest whatsoever in this debate. They are invisible on this matter. They are not taking to heart the interests of their constituents because they might be at odds with the national caucus of their party.

This is not the first time. It has happened on several occasions. I remember when Ontario Liberal members tried to quash, annihilate and have declared ultra vires the regulations under the Drug Patent Act. Quebec Liberal members remained quiet then also so as not to go against the impressive representation of Ontario Liberal members which had won 98 seats out of 99.

I would like to bring to the attention of my colleague from Vancouver Quadra that Bloc members have not only the right but the duty to speak up on this bill, to take it completely apart to try to explain what is at stake to people who voted for the Bloc Quebecois but also-this is politics-to those who, in Quebec, voted for the Liberal Party, which is not doing a very good job at defending their interests in this matter. Of course, they would have to forget partisanship and realize what the dangers of this legislation are.

The fees are arbitrary. The minister in charge, a former professional soldier, is the only one in his army who marches in step. He knows it all. He is the one who decides what is good for his government and his department.

I will give you an example. Clauses 25 and 26 deal with regulations concerning fees and extraterritorial fishing zones. I would like the member for Gaspé, through you, Madam Speaker, to allow the member for Vancouver Quadra to listen to the important remarks I am going to make. I know you agree, Madam Speaker, since you are not saying anything. Silence gives consent. I assume you have recognized how right I am.

All this to tell the member for Vancouver Quadra that when you write, in clause 25, "The Governor in Council may, on the recommendation of the Minister of Foreign Affairs-"

A little further it says: "The governor in council may, on the recommendation of the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans". This may seem harmless. The hon. member for Vancouver Quadra, who is also an expert in administrative law, will understand that this would deprive the House of its only power in the decision to legislate or regulate.

As the hon. member for Vancouver Quadra knows, the old wording was: "The governor in council may, by order", that is to say, after the House of Commons has made a decision to that effect. But this government, as it is wont to do, is now trying to make the presence of members representing all the regions of Canada irrelevant, because bills like this one affect everybody.

Therefore, if the minister can decide with his friends, in a Sparks Street restaurant, to regulate, to raise fees, to designate or eliminate an area, to redefine boundaries, he can do so. It used to be said that the only thing he could not do was to turn a man into a woman, but even that is possible today.

Through you, Madam Speaker, and with all the respect I have for my colleague, I wish to say that the hon. member for Vancouver Quadra is nonetheless a not-so-young man-no offence-who has been left with the burden of defending this bill to save his Liberal friends and colleagues from Quebec, who are hiding behind the curtains or in the lobby on the other side.

They have nothing to be proud of, unlike the hon. member for Vancouver Quadra, who, at his age, had the courage and the heart to stoically rise in this House to defend what I would not have defended, but at least he is doing so with conviction and intellectual honesty. Such is not the case for the Liberal members from Quebec.

I would like him to suggest that his minister defer third reading of this bill until the fall and finally listen to reason and realize that this bill will have a disastrous, unspeakable impact on the Quebec economy, and on transport in particular.

Are the senior members of the Liberal Party currently deciding to do to maritime transport what they did to rail transport, that is to say, deprive Quebec of most of its traffic, leaving only pleasure boats to sail without hindrance on the St. Lawrence? Did they decide to favour other means of heavy transport, even if this benefits our American friends' eastern ports? We have a right to ask this. I would like the hon. member for Vancouver Quadra, in an ultimate effort to be fair and honest, to set the record straight and be fair to Quebecers in this matter.

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4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Antoine Dubé Bloc Lévis, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to add that I support the point the hon. member for Chambly made quite eloquently about the major impact this bill will have on Quebec in particular.

Since the rules of this House do not allow us to speak of the absent, I am delighted to see that the minister responsible for Quebec is here. I think that references to someone's presence are allowed. At any rate, he is here and he has been all ears, especially since the remarks made by the last few speakers, including the very significant remarks made by the hon. member for Richelieu, have also attracted another minister from Quebec, I think.

It seems that our efforts to catch the attention of ministers from Quebec through our arguments are starting to pay off. Great. We commend them for being here and for listening to what we have to

say. We must take advantage of their being here to go over the economic considerations coming into play.

Let me remind the House that the Minister of Finance told the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans to come up with savings of $120 million over four or five years.

For this year alone, the finance minister's order is for $20 million. What were the options? The minister first considered implementing a fee structure. I need not elaborate on this subject, as my colleagues discussed it at length, but I feel that there would be room for improvement and, if the Liberals agree to defer consideration of this bill at third reading until the fall, this might be a good time to invite suggestions.

Here is what I have to suggest, in my personal capacity and as a member from the Quebec City area, after wondering if it would not be possible to further streamline coast guard services. Indeed, this is an option the administrator of the port in Trois-Rivières had come up with some time ago. He said: "At present, all of eastern Canada is divided into three areas and administered by three separate regional directorates. Why not consider merging the three into a single regional directorate for the whole region? This would cut costs by at least $17 million, with $2 million in savings coming just from moving icebreakers from the maritimes to bases located closer areas where the Coast Guard operates".

It is surprising indeed that nine icebreakers are currently based in Halifax, when we know that the eastern coast of Nova Scotia is ice free year round. That is incredible. Icebreakers are based in locations where there is no ice. To break the ice in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, they must travel 460 kilometres from their home base. Only four icebreakers are based in Quebec City's harbour. In 1993, there was an incident and it took more than five days for an icebreaker to travel to Lac Saint-Pierre, to break the ice that completely paralysed marine traffic.

Since 85 per cent of the goods transiting through the Cabot Strait are headed for ports in the St. Lawrence, it would make sense to establish the regional centre in Quebec. A journalist recently said I wanted to have the centre in Saint-Romuald, in my riding. I am not asking for that much. I am not trying to convince the minister responsible, but the centre should at least be located in Quebec, in the most appropriate location, since that is where icebreakers are needed, in the St. Lawrence River and in the gulf.

There are other issues which come to mind. The Louis S. Saint-Laurent , an icebreaker, costs $56,500 a day. It is the most costly ship to operate in the whole coast guard fleet. If we stopped using it, we would save $12.4 million. Why are we making this request? It is because the Louis S. Saint-Laurent has not been used to break the ice in the last five years. It was used for all sorts of other tasks. In other words, we were able to do without it.

It comes down to one thing: Why would rescue operations not be taken over by others? The Auditor General of Canada tells us they could be taken over, for instance, by the Canadian Navy, since it already does rescue work. I am not saying the coast guard is not doing a good job in Quebec, quite the contrary. However, since we must streamline operations, we should, instead of increasing fees, better integrate these services.

I know that other members wish to speak on Group No. 13.

Since there is only a half hour left to discuss this group, I will conclude by paying tribute to the hon. member for Vancouver Quadra and by asking the Secretary of State responsible for Quebec to use his influence within the Liberal caucus, so that third reading be postponed until the fall to allow the various stakeholders to make suggestions.

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5:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mrs. Ringuette-Maltais)

As agreed, Motions Nos. 76 and 88 in Group No. 12 are deemed to have been put to the vote and recorded divisions are deemed to have been requested and deferred.

The question is on Motion No. 76. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

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5:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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5:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.