Debates of Oct. 10th, 2025

The House resumed from October 8 consideration of the motion that Bill C-11, An Act to amend the National Defence Act and other Acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Military Justice System Modernization Act

[Jessica Fancy-Landry, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today with privilege in support of Bill C-11, an important piece of legislation that strengthens the National Defence Act, modernizes our military justice system and, most importantly, centres the rights, safety and dignity of survivors of sexual misconduct within the Canadian Armed Forces.

The legislation represents another critical step in our government's ongoing work to rebuild trust within the military community and to ensure that those who serve our country can do so in an environment that is safe, respectful and free from harassment or discrimination.

We ask a great deal of the men and women who serve in uniform. They are there for us in times of crisis, whether responding to natural disasters, supporting peacekeeping missions abroad, or standing ready to defend Canada. It is our duty to be there for them as well, to ensure that they are protected not only from external threats but from the harm that can exist within their own ranks.

In terms of responding to survivors and calls for change, Bill C-11 responds directly to recommendation 5 from the report of the former Supreme Court justice Louise Arbour, as well as eight recommendations from former justice Morris Fish's reports.

This bill would codify in law what has already been put into practice since 2021: that the Canadian Armed Forces no longer has jurisdiction over Criminal Code sexual offences committed in Canada. From now on, these offences will be investigated and prosecuted exclusively by civilian authorities.

This is a clear and necessary shift. The bill would provide survivors with clarity, with fairness and with the confidence that their cases will be handled outside the chain of command. It would also help ensure that sexual offences are treated consistently and transparently, aligning military procedures with the Criminal Code and the civilian justice system.

Bill C-11 would also establish a victim liaison officer to support survivors throughout this process, regardless of jurisdiction. It would enhance the independence of key justice actors within the military system to prevent real or perceived conflicts of interest.

Following the leadership of survivors and advocates, I want to take a moment to highlight some of the tremendous work that is being done in my home province of Nova Scotia to advance justice for survivors of sexual violence. Nova Scotia has become a national leader in confronting the misuse of non-disclosure agreements, or NDAs. Thanks to the tireless efforts of survivors and these advocates, our province has recognized how NDAs have too often been used to silence victims of sexual assault, harassment and misconduct both in everyday life and in their work.

Through strong legislative leadership and community advocacy, Nova Scotia has taken bold steps, ending the use of NDAs that prevent survivors from speaking their truth. This movement is grounded in compassion, in fairness and in the belief that justice must never depend on silence. The courage of survivors to come forward, many from the military community, has brought us to this point today. Their voices have reshaped how we understand accountability and transparency, not just in the civilian world but within institutions that have historically struggled to face their own culture of misconduct.

In terms of the importance of implementing all of these recommendations, while Bill C-11 represents real progress, we must also see it as a broader commitment to implementing all 48 of Justice Arbour's recommendations and the recommendations of Justice Fish. We cannot stop at partial measures.

Implementing all recommendations is essential to building a durable culture of change within the Canadian Armed Forces. This includes addressing systemic discrimination, improving leadership accountability, enhancing victim support systems and ensuring that diversity and inclusion are embedded at every level of the institution. Our government has already implemented roughly 20 of Justice Arbour's recommendations, and we are on track to complete them all. As we move forward, we must also ensure that the survivors continue to be at the centre of every policy, every decision and every reform.

We need a culture of respect and trust. Culture change takes time and begins with clear action. It begins when we replace silence with transparency, when we move from protecting institutions to protecting people and when we show through legislation, not just words, that we are committed to justice and equality. Bill C-11 is about restoring confidence that victims will be heard, that justice will be fair and that no one is above the law. It is also about ensuring independence, that military justice actors are free from the influence of command structures and that survivors can trust the system to serve their interests, not its own reputation.

In closing, I want to recognize the strength and resilience of survivors in the Canadian Armed Forces and across the country, who demand better. Their courage has driven this change. As legislators, we have an obligation to honour that courage with meaningful action. Bill C-11 would do exactly that. Let us be clear that this is not a finish line. It is one more step in a larger effort to create a military culture grounded in dignity, equity and respect, a culture that reflects the values of the country our members have sworn to defend. As Nova Scotians have shown through their leadership on ending NDAs, progress is possible when we listen, when we act and when we refuse to accept silence as the price of peace.

I am proud to support the legislation, and I call on all members in all parts of the House to join me in supporting Bill C-11 for the women and men who serve, for the survivors who have spoken out and for a future in which every member in the Canadian Armed Forces serves with pride, safety and dignity.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Mr. Speaker, what I gather from the member's speech, as far as the seriousness of the government or the military commitment or leadership, is that the rights of those serving in the institution were neglected completely and ignored in terms of what happened in the last 10 years.

What in the bill would assure us that we are going to change the conduct of the past to give people the rights they deserve?

[Jessica Fancy-Landry, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what I just spoke about in my speech. It is about rebuilding that culture of trust. We can talk about the last 10 years of government or the last 10 years of this, but the bill would address recommendations that have been given to us. It is about amending the NDA to address Arbour's recommendations, which will, in turn, support victims.

I look forward to your voting with us on the bill when it comes time.

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, John Nater]

I would remind members to address their comments through the Chair.

Questions and comments, the hon. member for Winnipeg North.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, Bill C-11 is transformative in the sense that sexual assault and harassment will be put in civil court as opposed to the military court process. This is, as the member put it, a very strong step forward. However, it is also important to recognize that after the reforms came forward, we had already started the shift to do that. That has been happening for the last couple of years.

Passing the legislation is the right thing to do, and we look forward to its going to committee. I would ask the member for her thoughts on the importance of the bill's going through the system.

[Jessica Fancy-Landry, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Mr. Speaker, good morning to my colleague. When he asks that question, I reflect back to 2021 and how the military police has been asking complainants whether they wish for their cases to be investigated in the military or through civilian police. What we have been looking at, which is part of the recommendations list, is that we need to take the two apart and have it run through our civilian justice system.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, cases of a sexual nature have been transferred to civilian authorities since the minister issued a directive to that affect in November 2021. Can the member speak to how that is working with regard, for example, to historical sexual assault cases, and I understand there have been some challenges with that, as well as the backlog we face in our courts and the implications of the Jordan decision?

[Jessica Fancy-Landry, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I agree with the member about the backlog, and it is unfortunate that we even have to talk about backlog when it comes to violence of a sexual nature within the military or within civilian life. I would also like to mention that as of July 29, 2024, the military police had referred 150 case files of offences in the criminal sexual offences code to civilian police, through federal, provincial, territorial and municipal agencies, since 2021. Following these consultations, or complaints, of these 150 cases, 103 of them have been accepted while 46 files have been declined by civilian police. Although the numbers are not 103 for 103, this tells me there is progress being made.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence is new to the job. He inherited a mess from his predecessors and is now trying to fix a decade of Liberal mismanagement and neglect.

I hear him saying the right things about Bill C-11. I am sure he believed it when he stated:

Canada’s military justice system must reflect the values of fairness, accountability, and respect that Canadians expect. With this legislation, we are delivering on recommendations made by former Supreme Court of Canada Justices Arbour and Fish and taking decisive steps to strengthen trust in the Canadian Armed Forces. These reforms will help ensure that every member serves in a safe, inclusive, and respectful environment, one that upholds the highest standards of integrity, reinforces operational effectiveness, and honours the commitment of those who wear the uniform in service to Canada.

With bold words like these, it was, to put it mildly, disappointing to read in the Ottawa Citizen that Patrick White, the naval officer who brought to light an alleged serial sex offender in the Canadian navy whose crimes were being ignored by military leadership, is being released from the naval reserve against his will. Supposedly, there is no place for him, while, at the same time, the alleged perpetrator continues to serve.

What message does that send to members of our armed forces and to the Canadian public? The whistle-blower is dumped from the military, while the alleged criminal continues on as if nothing happened.

The issue is not which court and jurisdiction will deal with sexual assault charges involving those serving with the military, which is the scope of this bill. The issue is that those in charge of military justice and their superiors apparently do not see anything wrong with the status quo. If no charges are being laid, what does it matter which court has jurisdiction?

This is part of a disturbing Liberal trend on this issue. Covering up wrongdoing and avoiding transparency seem to be the norm. For example, in 2021, the then prime minister and his defence minister continually covered up information on sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces, going to great lengths to block investigations and hide the truth from Canadians. The former prime minister orchestrated a cover-up to hide the fact that his top aide and his defence minister had direct knowledge of a sexual misconduct allegation against the then chief of the defence staff. When sexual misconduct was studied at the national defence committee in 2021, the Liberals filibustered for weeks and then called an election before the committee was able to produce a report. This is an example of Liberal lack of transparency on this issue, something not fixed by a change in the justice system.

The Liberal government has had 10 years to tackle sexual misconduct in the military. In 2015, Justice Marie Deschamps issued her external review of sexual misconduct and sexual harassment in the Canadian Armed Forces. The former Liberal minister of national defence had that report on his desk when he was sworn in. Did he act? Obviously, he did not. The Liberals ignored the problem for five years, then asked for another report. Then, just to be sure, they asked for a third report a year later.

When will military sexual trauma victims get the justice they deserve? The previous Conservative government took significant steps to protect Canadians and to stand with victims of crime. We understand that the highest priority for any government must be to ensure the safety of its citizens. This is a responsibility that the previous Conservative government took very seriously. Putting the rights of victims back at the heart of the criminal justice system is important to us. Standing up for victims means helping to ensure that victims have a more effective voice in the justice system and are treated with courtesy, compassion and the respect they deserve at every stage of the criminal justice process.

When a whistle-blower is told there is no place for him in the military while the alleged criminal keeps his job, it looks like the military criminal justice system is about the rights of criminals, not about supporting victims and certainly not about justice. No wonder our military is in crisis. It is not just antiquated and inadequate equipment. It is not just the lack of vision. It is a feeling that those in charge, the Liberal politicians and military leadership, cannot be trusted to do what is right for the men and women serving in our armed forces. They are not trusted to do what is right when confronted with allegations of a serious crime. No wonder enlistment is down and recruitment efforts are not gaining traction. Who would voluntarily enter what appears to be a toxic work environment?

It saddens me to say this, but I have little trust in the Liberal government's ability to bring justice to those who have been sexually assaulted while serving in our armed forces. I sincerely hope this legislation is not just Liberal virtue signalling. I hope to see a change in attitude towards sexual assault and a willingness to see prosecutions proceed swiftly and fairly. Changing the culture to make such crimes unacceptable may take time, but part of that culture change is showing that such behaviour will no longer be tolerated by leadership at every level of the Canadian military.

If moving jurisdiction for sexual assault away from military authorities to civilian ones results in an improvement in the way justice is administered in Canada, then, it would seem to me, this bill is worth supporting. However, is there any evidence this is actually the case, or will there still be cover-ups? The Liberal record for the past 10 years is one that has been soft on crime. We have seen violent offenders set free on bail to reoffend as a direct result of the Liberals' policy. Why would their attitude towards sexual assault in the Canadian Armed Forces be any different?

Conservatives believe we must continue to address sexual misconduct, discrimination, racism and other forms of harassment because all military members deserve a safe and respectful workplace. All victims of military sexual misconduct deserve timely justice. Does this bill deliver that?

The previous Conservative government accepted all recommendations in the Deschamps report to eliminate all forms of sexual harassment from the Canadian Armed Forces. After 10 long years of Liberal government and two more reports from Supreme Court justices, victims of military sexual misconduct are still no closer to having their cases dealt with properly. There are aspects of Bill C-11 that open the door to potential political interference and partisan appointments. Those include giving increased power to the Minister of National Defence to issue guidelines with respect to prosecutions, and having the director of military prosecutions, the director of defence counsel services and the provost marshal appointed by the Governor in Council.

Conservatives are proud of and support all men and women in uniform serving Canada. We believe they deserve a workplace free of sexual harassment. Maybe this legislation can be improved at the committee stage. Maybe the Liberals can convince us they are serious about dealing with sexual assault in the Canadian Armed Forces. This time, let us hope they are actually doing something instead of just telling us there is a serious issue to be dealt with.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that there has been no prime minister in the last 50 or 60 years who has done more for the Canadian Forces than the current Prime Minister, who was just elected a few months back, whether it is giving pay raises to members of our forces, the commitment of 2% of the GDP or looking at the true value of having this legislation brought in this fall and his commitment to trying to get it passed.

The biggest stumbling block, of course, on all three measures is getting the Conservatives on side and voting in favour of the types of initiatives the Prime Minister and the new government have put in place. When we look at Bill C-11, taking this from military into civilian courts is a good thing. We hope to get support from the Conservatives, but let us remember it has already been in process, in reality, for the last few years.

Would he not agree that—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, John Nater]

The hon. member for Edmonton Manning.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I was hoping the hon. member on the government side would at least recognize the 10 years of misconduct, the 10 years of mismanagement and not taking the issues that happened in the military seriously. He used the podium to praise the current government. He missed my point when I spoke about the last 10 years, the last prime minister and what they have done by filibustering at the committee level to downplay this serious issue. That is what he is missing.

I hope that he will admit to those mistakes.

[Roman Baber, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, something I took very much to heart from the hon. member's comments is the Liberal government's failure with regard to the justice system, specifically on bail and sentencing reform.

At the justice committee, we did a bit of math. We noticed that, in the last 557 days, the only two pieces of justice legislation the government brought forward have been the online harms act and Bill C-9. That is it. We have a crisis on the streets of Toronto. The government is not willing to get serious about the crime and chaos on our streets.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague is absolutely correct. Canadians have seen complete neglect of the justice system in the way of approaching crime and the way of dealing with it. That is why I was hoping they would stand up today, admit to the mistakes of the past and assure us, and Canadians, that they can move forward seriously and honestly to make sure they correct the wrongdoing.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Speaker, on the point of justice, I disagree with Conservatives. We do not advocate for an American-style criminal justice system. It is very different in terms of the whole “three strikes and you're out” thing.

Under the Prime Minister, again, through consultations, we have made a pledge to bring in bail reform. That means working with the different stakeholders.

Given the extent of consultations that have taken place and given that he knows we are going to receive bail reform legislation this fall, does the member concur that the Conservatives should get behind this type of legislation and, at the very least, when we do present it, allow it to get to committee stage so Canadians have the opportunity to provide direct—

[The Assistant Deputy Speaker, John Nater]

The hon. member for Edmonton Manning.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Mr. Speaker, obviously, the government has not learned at all after the last 10 years. It is still the same rhetoric, name calling and talking about American politics to somehow convince Canadians otherwise. Liberals have to be serious. They are in government. They have to be serious about these issues and deal with them responsibly. That is what they are not hearing.

By the way, I insinuated in my speech that, if the government is serious, the bill could deserve to go to committee in order to enhance it, improve it and make it a better bill.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak to Bill C-11, the military justice system modernization act. In short, the bill would amend the National Defence Act by removing investigative and prosecutorial jurisdiction in respect of sexual offences from the code of service discipline and would transfer such jurisdiction to civilian authorities on an exclusive basis to the extent that such offences are alleged to have arisen within Canada.

The legislation would implement recommendation 5 of the report of Madam Justice Deschamps, in which she undertook an external review of sexual misconduct and sexual harassment within the Canadian Armed Forces. Recommendation 5 is the only recommendation that requires a legislative change. I would note that the report of Madam Justice Deschamps was issued all the way back in March 2015. The government of the day, the Harper Conservative government, committed to implementing all 10 recommendations of the Deschamps report.

Of course shortly thereafter, there was a change of government. There was the election of the Liberals, and nothing was done. It is quite rich to see members across the way patting themselves on the back for introducing the legislation, because if in fact the legislation is the answer to addressing very real issues and challenges within the Canadian Armed Forces with respect to dealing with allegations of sexual assault and sexual misconduct, then the Liberals have a lot to answer for, because it has taken them a full 10 years in government to finally introduce the legislation. However, I digress.

With respect to the substance of the bill, it would transfer jurisdiction from the code of service discipline to civilian authorities with respect to the investigation and prosecution of offences of a sexual nature within the Canadian Armed Forces. By way of background, I will say that the purpose of the code of service discipline is to maintain discipline, efficiency and morale within the Canadian Armed Forces. That broad proposition has been recognized by the Supreme Court of Canada in the 1992 Généreux decision and the more recent 2019 Stillman decision, and it is stated in section 55 of the National Defence Act.

Conservatives stand with victims first and foremost, and it is on that basis that we will be supporting the legislation at second reading. That being said, I would submit that the bill warrants careful scrutiny when it is studied at committee. The legislation essentially stands for the proposition that the code of service discipline, the military justice system, is not fit for purpose, is not suitable and cannot be trusted to investigate offences of sexual assault and other sexual misconduct. That is the essence of the bill, whether the government would characterize it in that fashion or not.

It begs the question then, if that is so, what about other serious offences? The code of service discipline, after all, would apply to all other criminal offences within the Canadian Armed Forces; indeed, it would continue to apply to offences of a sexual nature where those offences are alleged to have arisen outside Canada. If concurrent jurisdiction of the code of service discipline is objectionable in the case of sexual offences, then should it not perhaps be considered objectionable in the case of other offences?

I say that in recognition of the uniqueness of sexual assault cases in terms of investigating and prosecuting them. I recognize that, but it does raise questions about whether the bill is a piecemeal or ad hoc approach to reform rather than a fully thought-out and comprehensive set of reforms to our military justice system.

I would, furthermore, ask what evidence there is that simply transferring the cases to the civilian authorities serves victims. I say that because there was a directive to the Minister of National Defence issued in November of 2021 to begin transferring sexual offence cases to the civilian authorities. I want to know to what extent that is working as intended. To what degree are these cases being prosecuted? What has been the rate of conviction? How are historical cases of sexual assault being proceeded with now that they fall within the jurisdiction of the civilian authorities? I understand there have been some challenges in that regard.

What about the extent to which prosecutions have been stayed because of a very real and serious backlog in our court system, having regard for the Jordan decision, which imposes a very strict timeline between the laying of charges and the conclusion of a trial, failing which there is a presumption of unreasonable delay and a stay of proceedings? I understand that this too has been an issue.

We need answers to these questions. We also need to better understand to what extent the bill would improve the maintenance of discipline, efficiency and morale within the Canadian Armed Forces now that the investigations of sexual assaults and sexual misconduct would largely fall outside of the chain of command and be transferred to the civilian authorities, absent a clear chain of responsibilities. To what degree would that impact how occurrences of sexual misconduct are handled, and to what extent might that put certain victims of sexual assault in a more vulnerable position? These are some of the many questions that need to be addressed.

I know that my Conservative colleagues on the national defence committee look forward to working with members on all sides of the House to hear from as many witnesses as possible, first and foremost from victims of sexual assault but also from actors within the military justice system, members of the Canadian Armed Forces, victims groups and so on. We need to have a thorough study to deal with some of the complexities that have to be addressed in what is a well-intentioned bill, the objective of which I support.

We need to get it right, first and foremost for victims of sexual assault within the Canadian Armed Forces who deserve a safe workplace, and we need to ensure, when it comes to the Canadian Armed Forces, that there is an improvement in the maintenance of discipline, efficiency and morale.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I concur with the member in the sense that I believe it is virtually unanimous in the House that the principle in the bill of taking the cases, including the investigations, from the military courts and putting them into the civilian courts, is the right step forward. We all agree with that.

The member raises valid concerns with respect to the transition. He is right; bringing cases over to the civilian system has been taking place for the last few years now. I would ultimately argue that the principles of the legislation are fairly well accepted. With respect to the details, I too share some of the concerns. I think there are variations between the different provinces and territories. The federal government has been working with the different stakeholders to try to iron out details of some of the situations.

I would concur, and I would ask the member this: Does he not agree that to get into that kind of detail, sometimes it is best to do that at the committee stage?

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I fully agree with the member. There are a lot of nuances to the bill. There are a lot of details that have to be sorted, and there may very well be some amendments required to get it right, and that is why we are committed to seeing that the bill move forward to committee today.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to my colleague's speech and I thank him for it. However, I would like to share an additional concern with the House.

We hope that there will be some changes in committee to allow for impartiality when there is a ruling. This being said, the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs is currently studying the issue of suicide among veterans.

Does my colleague agree that, beyond just the current legislation, there is a cultural phenomenon that exists and that we absolutely need to make a complete 180°?

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I concur with the hon. member that there are cultural issues that have to be tackled.

There have also been well-documented instances of a failure to hold certain leaders within the Canadian Armed Forces accountable. It is not necessarily the systems that are in place and the code of service discipline that are the problem; it is what have been instances of a lack of accountability by individuals who have failed. Regrettably, the government was complicit in that regard when it played a major role in covering up the wrongdoing of Vance. That cover-up went all the way to the top, right to the former prime minister and to his chief of staff, Katie Telford.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member's speech very clearly outlines what our concerns are and what our interest is in having the bill properly studied at committee.

I have to ask the member how we got to this place. The Liberals have been in government for 10 years, and they have failed to prioritize and to take the proper action needed to redress the very deep issues within the culture of the Canadian Armed Forces that they have not only allowed to continue but in fact, through their actions, their complicity and the cover-ups, as mentioned by my hon. colleague, have also made worse for victims and for all members in uniform.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, that, sadly, is the record of the Liberals. At every step of the way, they have dragged their feet. They say that this is needed, that this is the solution: take jurisdiction out of the code of service discipline when it comes to sexual offences and transfer it into the civilian system. That recommendation was recommendation 5 of Madam Deschamps' report, which was 10 years ago. Then the Liberals proceeded to have Justice Fish issue a report, and then they asked Justice Arbour to undertake the same study, the same review, that Madam Justice Deschamps had undertaken years earlier.

It is a record of inaction. It is a record of failure.