Evidence of meeting #26 for Agriculture and Agri-Food in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was regulations.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Liberal
Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
Your stories remind me of our farm. We had a beef operation and we used to do our own killing and retail hamburger. The bottom line is that we were driven out by inspections and things like that.
I think what's really amazing is that 12 hours ago our committee just finished a report on listeriosis. One of the findings is that there were not enough inspectors. Here you have a situation where the big corporate killing plants do not have enough inspectors. In your case, there are too many inspectors visiting your place, pretty well running you out of business. It just doesn't make sense.
What most consumers want is local safe product. Local is number one; safe, of course, is number two. The bureaucrats have a problem here too. A lot of times they're doing the regulations, and they're sitting in their ivory towers coming up with things they think are right and then turning around and trying to implement them with no real understanding of what it's going to cost the butcher.
Does the system need to be turned upside-down a bit, where you should have the ministers of agriculture, federally and provincially, sitting in a room discussing where we are going and what we are really doing? Are we really servicing, number one, the consumers to their best interests? Are we really servicing the local chambers of commerce and small butcher shops? Or are we on some sort of trip here that's totally out of reality? Maybe some of these ministers get into these portfolios—and they change these ministers every couple of years—and the bureaucrats are already on this spin cycle, and they have no chance of changing some of the programs.
Would you suggest there has to be an overall reality check to look at what's happening in the whole inspection system, especially when you've got both federal and provincial systems going down the track? Does there have to be an investigation or reality check on where we're going with this?
Owner, Roesch Meats and More
A statement that is in Ontario right now is that OMAFRA has higher standards and is trying to continue to go higher than what CFIA is. We can't compete with that. The reality is that our food is just as safe. They started the listeria checks in early January, and they told us at our place that we didn't have to worry about it; it would be at least 18 months to two years because they were starting at the top and working down. We're pretty small. Well, we had ours on February 4, and they couldn't find anything, so there's nothing to complain about there.
But that is the reality. For some reason, Ontario wants to get out of meat inspection. It was already tried once to turn it over to CFIA, and it failed. Now I think what they're trying to do is set the standards higher, so that next time they want to try to turn it back to them, which is shortly I think, CFIA can't deny our entrance, because now we're higher. When you look at the statistics that I pulled up on their own website, it was 420 five years ago, and that's when they really started to push on these regulations. We are now down to 175.
Ontario Independent Meat Processors is boasting an increase in membership, and it's true, but that's because of the new regulations that have been enforced. All the free-standing plants, which we are, have come under these new regulations.
There are certainly some things I would like to say, but I will not.
Liberal
Mark Eyking Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
Are you suggesting that maybe because of Walkerton and listeriosis, the Ontario bureaucracy is to a certain extent paranoid about the whole thing, about getting a problem somewhere, and the easiest target is the small guys?
Owner, Roesch Meats and More
Absolutely. What I will add to that—which is probably going to get me in trouble, but I'm going to do it anyway—is that we are one of the last plants left that are still on well water. I'm fighting it right to the end, because we've been tested for 12 years, every two weeks, and we've never had a problem, but they're still saying I have to put in a system that's equal or superior to a municipal system. Of course, the statement I made to that was, “Then I must have something go wrong at least twice a year so I have to boil water”, and that didn't go over very well.
There's nothing wrong with the water. Who's going to pay for that expense? It doesn't do anything. Their suggestion is to put it in and then put another system in to take the chlorine out. If you don't have a problem in the first place, why would you go through that cost? About 60% of the customers we have come because we do not have chlorine in the water, and we also do a lot of specialty products for people who have allergies. They'd be very upset if we had to close, because they've finally found a place where they can get products that don't cause them health problems.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Larry Miller
Thank you very much.
That's a good example, Mr. Roesch, of what I think Mr. Eyking was referring to. It's bureaucracy overkill when you haven't had a bad test. I've heard that kind of horror story before.
Ms. Bonsant, you have five minutes.
France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC
Thank you, gentlemen.
Please excuse my ignorance: I am familiar with the regulations in Quebec, but not in Ontario. When I was young, a butcher delivered meat to our house from his truck. I really liked that. He cut the meat right in front of us. He was a real village butcher. And as you can see, I did not die from eating that meat.
I also have to admit that I rarely buy meat in supermarkets because their products come from Alberta. I know that mad cow disease originated in Alberta, and that is why I am reluctant to buy meat products from that province. I always buy my meat from a farm woman who produces organic meat. I'm not afraid to say that the meat she sells is really delicious and of good quality. However, she never mentions paperwork. But at some point an inspector will show up on her farm and inspect her facilities. I don't think that will result in her having to fill out paperwork which would keep her busy for three days.
Do you believe, as the gentleman said earlier, that the government has abandoned its responsibilities in terms of hiring qualified inspectors, and that you have to make up for the government's lack of long-term vision in the area of meat inspection? Do you think that to ensure the safety of your products, it is more effective for the government to let you hire an inspector rather than hiring certified inspectors itself?
Each of you may respond.
Butcher, Empire Meat Company
I'll start with coming to the house with the meat. In Ontario, for as long as I've been a butcher, that's always been against the law. You cannot come away from your premises unless you have a store on wheels. In other words, you have to be fully equipped with the four sinks and the couple of coolers in order to come to serve the customer.
I don't think the Ontario government is trying to put us out of business and trying to make us pay for inspectors. I don't think that's the case. I understand that they're trying to make Ontario food safe, and it is. Excluding the listeriosis at Maple Leaf Foods, I can't recall a problem with meat. It has always been with vegetables or with improper handling of food. As I say, I can't recall.
What I have a problem with is the way they bring these rules down from the corporations and the grocery stores and try to force them onto the small artisans like me. As I say, I'm a wee person. I operate by myself. My sons no longer help me at work; they're off on their own now, so I am a one-man operation.
As I say, I'm a wee artisan. I call myself “wee” because I'm of British descent, so I only focus on the British community in my area. They stopped me from packaging my sausage and taking it to another British store, where they can sell it to their customers. They say that my shop is not set up to package properly, to have the proper labelling on it, to transport in a refrigerated vehicle, even though I know that's not necessary. As long as the product gets there at the right temperature, that's the key, but they force you to have a refrigerated vehicle.
Bloc
France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC
Do you think that, rather than the quality of your products being at issue, the large supermarket chains simply want to put you out of business?
Butcher, Empire Meat Company
Yes, that's the understanding I get from a lot of the people in my industry. I mean, who made up these rules? It was the University of Guelph, the corporations, and the independent federation of meat packers. None of the people in my situation belong to any of those organizations.
Bloc
France Bonsant Bloc Compton—Stanstead, QC
I think that the principle is to think big.
And you, Mr. Roesch, do you have the same problem?
Owner, Roesch Meats and More
Yes, we definitely experience the same problems; there's no question about that. Part of this is on competition and how you survive. You might as well say we're all farmers here too, when we get right down to that, and we have to learn how to agree to disagree.
One of the things I disagree with is his statement that the inspectors should be allowed to just walk straight in the door, take a swab, and go. I don't have a problem with that; the problem I have is why do the grocery stores, which don't have to have the same type of set-up as we do in order to sell meats, have to be notified a full month in advance that they're going to come and do an inspection? I don't consider that a clear playing field.
Butcher, Empire Meat Company
I never saw one inspector, and they closed me down.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Larry Miller
You're out of time, Ms. Bonsant.
That's an interesting comment, Mr. Roesch.
Mr. Atamanenko, for five minutes.
NDP
Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC
I think this is a very appropriate way to end; we're finishing up our study on competitiveness. What you gentlemen are illustrating is what I would call--I just made some notes here--the tragedy of our Canadian agriculture. You were talking earlier on about sovereignty and trade and how we balance this, but what's happening is that we've basically written a process of killing a localized meat industry in our country. It's as simple as that.
We've had the same problem in British Columbia with our meat inspection regulations that came in a few years ago. People are scrambling. People are killing off their lambs. They're not able to conform to the rules. At the same time, we have this grassroots movement, which is talking about local food and sovereignty and getting control of our food supply. Something is clearly out of step here.
Do you believe there is a role for the federal government to lay some guidelines so we can reintroduce some flexibility in our system? It's my understanding that the reason this inflexibility exists is that there has been pressure on the federal government from the CFIA and from large conglomerates to standardize this in the name of food safety. Is it time now for the federal government to play a role with its provincial partners to reintroduce a certain amount of flexibility so businesses such as yours, Mr. Soady-Easton, and yours, Mr. Roesch, and yours, Mr. Norg, can survive and give us good-quality food?
Maybe we could start with you, Mr. Norg.
Micro Meat Processor, Carl's Choice Meats
I think, if you look back, you'll find that small meat shops such as ours have always provided top-quality food. What's happening here is that, you're right, the CFIA starts it, and it's gone down the line; everybody needs to meet the same requirements. How do we do that? I think that's where the issue is.
NDP
Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC
We have a system with health unit inspectors that has worked to ensure that you folks are able to supply us with good-quality food. All of a sudden we now have a dysfunctional system where we've become so top-down centralized.
We don't have much time but, Mr. Soady-Easton, do you have any comments on that?
Butcher, Empire Meat Company
I'm glad you brought up the part about the health inspectors.
The Friday before I closed on Saturday, my local health inspector came into the store. I looked at him and laughed. I said, “I guess I have a big target on me.” He asked why. I said, “Well, they're shutting me down.” He said, “Oh well, you don't need me then.” I said, “No, I'm clean. I'd like to have my shop inspected again, as it always has been when you come by every month or every two months.” And it was perfect--a perfect inspection, and I'm being shut down.
Owner, Roesch Meats and More
One of the comments I have on that is OMAF in particular in our province is picking up all the standards from CFIA, but they're adding to them as they go. I turned over the list of things I have to somebody in CFIA. Of the 21 things they want changed, they said there are only three that are actually in regulation, that need to be changed.
The one that is a major problem to me is the water. The CFIA regulation is that it has to be potable water. They even made the statement to me that if you're out in the mountains some place and you're taking stream water, as long as it's potable water, it's safe; there's no reason you have to go to that expense.
NDP
Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC
This will be my last question.
We've heard in this committee the theme that we have Canadian standards, we have other standards, and ours are usually higher in regard to pesticides and herbicides. We've heard that from the organic folks who were here. And yet we allow products to come into our country that do not meet our standards.
Should our committee be recommending to our government that we institute a standard whereby we do not allow produce or other commodities to come into our country that do not meet our standards? In other words, we bring the standards of others who want to compete with our producers up to our standards. Is that a viable solution, do you think, anybody?
Owner, Roesch Meats and More
I have no problem with that, because there is no way CFIA standards at this time are going to hurt us in Ontario, as far as I am concerned, as long as they don't try to make our plants exactly the same as the large federal plants. It can't be done. We don't have that....
The other thing I have also been told, which has been mentioned here, concerns the inflow of products. According to some of the people I have talked to, there is no such thing as being able to put a plant together that has a 100% perfect flow. When you get down to the smaller plants, as you said, if we're working in the back and a customer comes to the front, we're totally out of whack. It can't be done. As you say, you can't hire somebody to stay at the front all the time, and you can't tell the customers to help themselves and just throw the cash in the till. It doesn't work.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Larry Miller
Mr. Atamanenko, your time is up.
We'll go to Mr. Shipley now, for five minutes.
Conservative
Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON
Thank you, witnesses.
I apologize. I have another meeting at 1:30, so I'll get through my five minutes.
I want to reiterate a little bit what Mr. Eyking said. He talked about people wanting to use local food and safe food. Having gone through the subcommittee hearings, I've heard that safety comes first and local comes second. It doesn't matter where it comes from; consumers want to know that they have safe food.
I want to thank all of you for helping to emphasize to all of us the significance of the fact that the local abattoirs out there are producing safe products. I don't think that has ever been an issue. We've had a lot of discussion, and I would submit to you that if you were to go around this table, you would get 100% support for having the systems you have in our local communities, because we recognize the significance to your customers and our communities of your actually providing safe, quality food for us.
We've had a lot of discussion about whether there should be one licensing standard for processing in abattoirs or the two we have right now. Could I have quick comments, because I have about three or four questions?