Canada-China Relations Committee on March 22nd, 2021

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Sure.

[Iain Stewart]

I started this job after the date being discussed.

Dr. Poliquin.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Please go ahead. Time is limited here.

[Dr. Guillaume Poliquin, Acting Vice-President, National Microbiology Laboratory, Public Health Agency of Canada]

The specific shipment that was being referenced, Mr. Chair, was done in accordance with the lab's standard operating procedures in compliance with the HPTA and the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act, as well as with the Canadian fire safety standards.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you.

Can you understand why Canadians are concerned about the termination of the employment of these two scientists at the lab and why it's concerning that no further information is being released, even to a parliamentary committee? It creates a lot of suspicion and questions, the termination of these two scientists. I'm asking if you would be forthcoming and let us know why they were terminated.

You're protected here in front of a parliamentary committee. You have privilege as a witness. In other words, your testimony here cannot be used against you outside of this committee. The Canadian public would like to know why these two scientists were terminated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Chong, regrettably the time, of course, as you said is limited and the time is not protected. In that sense, I'm afraid yours has concluded. It may be that someone else can raise the same question again, and then we'll have a chance for one of the witnesses, or perhaps both, to answer that question.

Now I have to go on.

I'll now give the floor to Mr. Dubourg for six minutes.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm going to share my time with my colleague Mr. Fragiskatos.

First of all, allow me to acknowledge the witnesses, Mr. Stewart and Dr. Poliquin. We are pleased to hear them talk about Canada-China relations.

Mr. Stewart, you said in your opening remarks that you have had discussions with China on science, technology and intellectual property. Could you elaborate a little more on the nature of those discussions?

[Iain Stewart]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I was referring, sir, to a series of agreements that the Government of Canada and China have reached around collaboration in research, as you note. Those go back for many years. In the case of science and technology in particular, they go back to a 2007 arrangement focused on life sciences and, as I mentioned, areas such as vaccines.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

How would you characterize the discussions you have had since last March with the Chinese authorities or your counterparts in China on vaccines and citizen assistance processes?

[Iain Stewart]

These are normally done as missions of scientists and government officials. Usually there are events. We go over, and there are specific topics of concern, areas of research in which presentations are made, so it's of that nature.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Okay.

During the pandemic, have you put in place additional security measures for the research done by Health Canada?

[Iain Stewart]

Do you mean at the Public Health Agency?

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Yes, I'm sorry; I'm talking about the Public Health Agency of Canada's measures to counter cyber-attacks and prevent our research from being compromised.

[Iain Stewart]

This has been an area of concern for the government. I believe CSIS and perhaps CSE, which would be known to this committee, put out guidance and in fact warnings about persistent threat actors and activity around research related to the COVID situation. It's not for me to speak about their activities with respect to cybersecurity and so on, but yes, you're absolutely right, sir, that it has been an area of concern.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Okay, thank you.

You said that this is the mandate of CSIS, and I understand that, but have these organizations contacted you at any point to tell you to watch out for this or that type of process in your agency?

[Iain Stewart]

The people who are responsible for digital security and cybersecurity have been doing a fair amount of outreach, as you're suggesting, to government labs like ourselves, as well as to the private sector and others. Again, I'm not necessarily in the best position to speak about what they're doing, but with respect to ourselves, we take cybersecurity very seriously, particularly around our labs and the research that we're doing related to COVID. It has been an area where, in fact, we have been paying particular attention, sir.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you.

I have one last question for you, Mr. Stewart.

We had a chance to meet with Dr. Scott Halperin, the director of the Canadian Center for Vaccinology at Dalhousie University. We know that he has been to China a few times and has met with representatives of the security agencies.

Were you in contact with Dr. Halperin or with Dalhousie University regarding vaccination, for example?

[Iain Stewart]

Yes. Actually, in my career I had an opportunity to work at Dalhousie University, and I know Dr. Halperin from that period some time ago. More recently, in my time at the National Research Council, we had discussions related to his work at the Canadian vaccination centre—he is, in fact, a pivotal part of the Canadian research community in that way—so, yes, I do know and I have spoken with Dr. Halperin.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Following his return from China, did you have similar discussions to talk about his discoveries or research?

[Iain Stewart]

I've actually never spoken to Dr. Halperin about his trips to China, nor about his actual personal research in the context that I'm discussing now. I've been talking to him in the context of his leadership through the Canadian vaccination centre at Dalhousie. That was around projects that he does for that institution.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Stewart.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bergeron, you have six minutes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses.

Mr. Poliquin, I must admit that I was somewhat surprised by the brevity—to say the least—of your remarks earlier.

Anyway, I would like to follow up on what Mr. Chong was talking about. He talked about this pair of Chinese researchers who went to China a few times, including once in July 2019. In fact, they were kicked out of the lab after going to China with live samples of Ebola and Nipah. Yet it appears from the evidence that everything was done by the book.

Why were they kicked out of the lab, then? Why did they wait several months before firing them outright?

[Iain Stewart]

They are no longer with the agency. We undertook an investigation, and I'm not really at liberty to talk more about that, sir.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

What do you mean when you say you're not at liberty to talk about it? You are before a parliamentary committee, so you normally have to answer questions from parliamentarians. The question is simple: if everything was done properly, why were they kicked out and fired a few months later?

The question is simple; the answer should be, too.