Canada-China Relations Committee on May 3rd, 2021

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Li. I only have a few more minutes and I do have a question for Ward Elcock.

Mr. Bergeron suggested that you testified in 2000 before the House of Commons that you didn't have any trust in computers in those days and that you'd rather have paper because you were concerned that there were security concerns. I would suspect that you probably think there are more security concerns than before.

Do you believe there's sufficient ability to mitigate those concerns in dealing with international communications between here and China, whether or not they go through networks such as those controlled by Huawei?

[Ward Elcock]

I'm not quite sure which communications you're referring to. If you're referring to the information at the facility in Beijing that processes visas, I think the issue there is on the ground in China.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Yes, I get that. I want your understanding of how....

Communications have advanced by 20 years since then. Are you any more comfortable with the ability to mitigate communication by computers over long distances, such as between here and China or anywhere in the world?

[Ward Elcock]

Yes, it is possible. Encryption and computers and other things have advanced in the same time period, so it is possible.

To take the Huawei case, for example, whether or not one would want to build one's system with Huawei equipment might be a more difficult question, because then the issue becomes whether the equipment is trapped or backdoored.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

We hear stories about the Americans selling encryption services through a back door of a German company and reading everybody's diplomatic exchanges for 15 or 16 years. It's not unheard of to be able to interfere with this equipment, is it?

[Ward Elcock]

No, it's not. It is not unusual for other countries to collect intelligence. China is not the only country in the world that collects intelligence. Canada does too.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Do we collect intelligence internationally as well, through your former agency?

[Ward Elcock]

The service does operate outside of Canada, yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

We will now begin our second round.

We go to Mr. Paul-Hus for five minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Li, in 2013, CSIS released a report calling Confucius institutes Trojan horses sent to spy on Canada.

Now, eight years later, does the same view prevail?

[Justin Li]

I cannot speak to the view of others. I heard that report and I read the news, but certainly it's not the case with Carleton.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Elcock, we talked a bit about Huawei. In 2017, a number of experts, including yourself, warned Canada about Huawei and its 5G technology. Four years later, the Canadian government has yet to make a decision, claiming that it is waiting for reports.

What are your thoughts on that?

[Ward Elcock]

I would prefer to see a decision taken, but I would also prefer to see Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig back in Canada. I suspect that's not going to happen for a while either. I'm not sure the fact that the government has not yet taken a decision is enormously troubling at this point in time, given all of the other extenuating issues, but I assume at some point a decision will be taken.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You think, then, that the agencies have done their work and that the decision is purely about politics. If the two Michaels were not a factor, you think Canada would have already banned Huawei. Is that right?

[Ward Elcock]

It is very hard for me to conceive of a situation in which the Government of Canada will decide to proceed with allowing Huawei to operate in Canada, given all of the circumstances. Frankly, I don't think that is likely to happen. Does that mean a decision has been taken? I obviously don't know the answer to that question, but it may well be that the government has taken a decision but has decided not to announce it yet.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

On the whole, do you think the Government of Canada is currently failing to show leadership vis-à-vis China? I'm not talking about Huawei.

[Ward Elcock]

That's not entirely clear. The challenges for Canada in dealing with China, particularly during the previous American administration, were huge. Those challenges were only made worse by the issues around Huawei, and then by the Chinese taking Mr. Spavor and Mr. Kovrig hostage. Those, plus the main case, have all made the situation with China extremely difficult.

As I said at the beginning, the reality is that the position of the current American administration is much more supportive to a Canadian position. We'll see where we go with Mr. Spavor and Mr. Kovrig, and whether the Chinese decide at some point to release them.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

When it comes to China's influence globally, taking into account activities on Canadian soil and in Canada's north, do you think Canada has shown strong enough leadership? Should Canada raise the issue more seriously with its NATO partners to create a real coalition, for example?

Obviously, the Americans are our first go-to when it comes to relationship-building. However, with the Chinese government being what it is today, do think Canada should take a tougher stand? Should the Canadian government raise the issue with its partners to better protect itself?

[Ward Elcock]

It's easier to have a strong position when we have the partnerships. When we are completely exposed, the challenges are considerably greater. As I was saying a second ago, given the current American position, it is beginning to become clear that there is an opening to a partnership with the United States, and possibly with other NATO partners and other partners around the world, that will take us in the direction we would like to go, or many would like go. The position of the government will then become clearer.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

Mr. Dubourg, we now go to you for five minutes.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, Mr. Elcock and Mr. Li.

Mr. Li, we are very glad to have you with us. You are now the director of the National Capital Confucius Institute for Culture, Language and Business. You said you applied for the position in 2011. You talked about the institute's three areas of focus: language, culture and assistance.

As I'm sure you know, a number of witnesses have talked to the committee about foreign interference and threats. We have asked you about that. A witness in the previous panel, Paul Evans, likened Confucius institutes to a Chinese propaganda machine.

When you hear comments like that about Confucius institutes, how do you respond?

[Justin Li]

Thank you, sir.

I haven't read news and media outlet stories, but the Confucius Institute at Carleton strictly follows the policies and procedures of Carleton University. All the business scholars coming to the institute are also covered under the same policies and procedures, so they teach the Carleton curriculum content. Everything is under Carleton's policies and procedures.

[Emmanuel Dubourg, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Li.

I represent a Montreal riding. In Montreal, Quebec, we have a Confucius Institute that is open to students and the public.

Would you agree with that statement?

[Justin Li]

I cannot speak for the other institutes, but at Carleton the Confucius Institute provides support to the School of Linguistics and Language Studies, which offers a credit course to students registered at Carleton University.