Evidence of meeting #20 for Declaration of Emergency in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funds.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Joint Chair  Hon. Gwen Boniface (Senator, Ontario, ISG)
Jody Thomas  National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office
Marie-Hélène Chayer  Executive Director, Integrated Terrorism Assessment Centre
Martin Green  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Intelligence Assessment, Privy Council Office
Claude Carignan  Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C
Peter Harder  Senator, Ontario, PSG
Dennis Glen Patterson  Senator, Nunavut, CSG
Mike MacDonald  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Security and Intelligence, Privy Council Office
Jacob Wells  Co-Founder, GiveSendGo

6:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Integrated Terrorism Assessment Centre

Marie-Hélène Chayer

Thank you very much.

A lot of the IMVE rhetoric is being exchanged and disseminated online, as we all know. Ever since the beginning of the pandemic, really, we've seen a marked increase in IMVE rhetoric online and on social media. The challenge with that is, as Madam Thomas mentioned earlier, the people who disseminate the propaganda are not necessarily the people who would mobilize to violence and conduct an act of terrorism. What we have seen happening is that the consumers of that rhetoric and that propaganda slowly, or sometimes very quickly, radicalize and mobilize to violence, and then conduct an act of terrorism.

During the convoy, the whole pandemic and still, we saw that kind of narrative. It's very anti-authority and anti-government, but also xenophobic and misogynistic.

Another challenge with the IMVE threats we're facing is that some of my colleagues call it the “salad bar” threats, because people will not necessarily just focus on one set of grievances. They can pick up many different things, depending on their own personal circumstances, and get triggered. It's very hard to determine by what and when, and what kind of active violence they might conduct.

7 p.m.

The Joint Chair Hon. Gwen Boniface

Thank you.

I have 30 seconds left.

In terms of the rhetoric that we see and we continue to hear, as you say, how has it impacted internationally? I can get the answer in my next question, but I have colleagues and former colleagues working in New Zealand who had great concerns about what was going on. I think all of that context, as an example, is reflective of the environment we're in today versus at the time the act was written.

I'll hold that question until the end. I think I'm done.

We will move to Senator Carignan.

7 p.m.

Claude Carignan Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Thomas, would you please tell us about the legal opinion that many people saw, but that we didn't? Who requested that legal opinion on whether the Emergencies Act could be invoked?

7 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Jody Thomas

I think that's a solicitor-client privilege question. The legal opinion is written by the Department of Justice. There had to be a legal opinion to accompany the invocation document, but beyond that, I don't think I can say much more.

7 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C

Claude Carignan

Who was the client?

7 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Jody Thomas

It's the Governor in Council.

7 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C

Claude Carignan

All right.

Did you see that legal opinion?

7 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Jody Thomas

I was aware of legal opinions along the path as the determination was made to invoke the act.

7 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C

Claude Carignan

Did Mr. Vigneault see that legal opinion?

7 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Jody Thomas

Mr. Vigneault should speak for himself, but I believe he had his own legal opinion.

7 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C

Claude Carignan

Outside cabinet, how many people had access to that legal opinion?

7 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Jody Thomas

I can't answer that question.

7 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C

Claude Carignan

Do you think many people outside cabinet had access to the legal opinion?

7 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Jody Thomas

I'm sorry, Madam Chair, but I don't know the answer to that question. I wouldn't want to speculate.

7 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C

Claude Carignan

The client was the cabinet. The professional who provided the service was the Minister of Justice, the Attorney General of Canada. The cabinet may therefore waive solicitor-client privilege.

Did the cabinet consult you on the matter of waiving solicitor-client privilege with respect to that legal opinion?

7 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Jody Thomas

I was not consulted. I have not had a discussion on that question.

7 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C

Claude Carignan

I see.

What was the nature of the legal opinion?

Was it a decisive factor in your recommendation?

7 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Jody Thomas

The understanding of the Emergencies Act and the elements of it was critical. My own recommendation was based on the national security community and the information we had at hand to advise cabinet on February 13 and 14.

7 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C

Claude Carignan

The list of all the people attending the cabinet meeting, including the commissioner of the RCMP, is on the record.

The commissioner of the RCMP sent an email to the Minister of Public Safety saying that there was no obligation to invoke the Emergencies Act and that other solutions were available.

When cabinet discussed the matter, did the commissioner of the RCMP make even the slightest effort to say that she had sent an email to the Minister of Public Safety? Did anyone who had seen the email speak out?

7:05 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Jody Thomas

I'm certainly not going to talk about what was discussed in cabinet. I think that is understood here. That question has been discussed. At the IRG, there's an opportunity for officials to speak. The commissioner of the RCMP had that opportunity. The reality is that the plan did not come together until February 17. After the Emergencies Act was invoked, it included authorities afforded to police. The final plan was not ready until February 17.

7:05 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C

Claude Carignan

The plan had been prepared in advance, hadn't it?

7:05 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Jody Thomas

We had been hearing about plans for weeks.

7:05 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C

Claude Carignan

What do you think was the major factor in invoking the Emergencies Act in Ottawa?

7:05 p.m.

National Security and Intelligence Advisor, Privy Council Office

Jody Thomas

Again, thank you for that question.

I've been very clear, I believe, that it was not one location that caused the invocation of the Emergencies Act. It was the totality of the blockades—

7:05 p.m.

Senator, Quebec (Mille Isles), C

Claude Carignan

Yes, but the other issues associated with the blockades had been resolved. The problem was solved in Windsor and Coutts. All that was left was mainly the protesters on Wellington Street, where the hot tub and barbecue had been set up.