Environment Committee on Feb. 26th, 2007

[Morgan Williams]

No, this is Wellington.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Wellington, of course, the capital. Excuse me, of course.

[Morgan Williams]

Yes, I trust you can see the beehive behind me.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

We can see something there. It's 21 degrees there. You'll be glad to know that here it's a balmy minus 1 at the moment, which is a nice change from the minus 15 degrees we've had recently.

Thank you so much for appearing.

Also, merci beaucoup, madame.

Mr. Hill, thank you so much.

We'll excuse the witnesses, and we're going to now turn to the consideration of the motion by Mr. McGuinty. So we'll just pause for a moment or two while we let the witnesses, if they wish, leave the table. You're welcome to stay with us and have a seat.

There goes Mr. Williams.

Colleagues, the motion has already been moved, I understand, and it's before the committee. Are there comments? Is there debate? Or would you prefer to move to the question?

Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I think it was at the last meeting that I asked the mover, Mr. McGuinty, if he would define the word “advocate”. That was the issue of concern raised by the Auditor General. We've heard a definition from Mr. Williams. My question, through you, to him is, if that is the definition as provided by Mr. Williams, is that what he's in this motion defining as “advocate” and “the role of an advocate”?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Is there another speaker? I have no further speakers.

Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

So Chair, I'm still waiting. I've asked a question through you to Mr. McGuinty, and it's a relevant question. I definitely want to know what we're voting on.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Warawa, as I think you understand, the members are not witnesses here and they're not required to answer questions. I realize you're putting the question, and if someone wishes to answer it they're welcome to do that. Or if others wish to speak, we'll take their names and the order they indicate they'd like to speak in.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Let it be on the record, then, Mr. Chair, that Mr. McGuinty has not answered my question to define what his motion means.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. McGuinty.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

I would like to make some closing remarks, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses who have appeared before us. I'd like to thank the members of the committee for their patience in dealing with this very important and timely matter.

I'd like to go back, just to close off with some of the comments made by Madame Gélinas herself. It's interesting that when the Minister of the Environment was informed that Madame Gélinas had been dismissed from her position, his first reaction was to say simply that—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. McGuinty, hold on.

On a point of order, Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Chair, at no time was this committee notified that Madame Gélinas was dismissed. We were informed that there was a new acting commissioner. So I just want to clarify that. At no time was this committee ever—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. Warawa, that sounds more like debate than a point of order, but thank you for your—

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Just for clarification, we need to make sure that all comments are accurate.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Mr. McGuinty.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to come back to a very accurate comment, which is the comment made by the Minister of the Environment when he discovered that Madame Gélinas was working within the office, had withdrawn but had been dismissed at the same time, as the Auditor General told us in her testimony. The Minister of the Environment said that he was so impressed with the work of Madame Gélinas that she should be appointed as a member of the Order of Canada. I concur.

What I'd like to do now is read some of the operative passages from Madame Gélinas' letter to the committee and for all Canadians to hear. I think these are very important, before we put this motion to a vote. She talks about the duties of other commissioners, one of whom we heard from here today. She says:

If we examine the duties of other commissioners (Official Languages, Ethics, Information, Privacy, etc.), we find that in addition to carrying out investigations, these officials have a duty to promote and encourage best practices, without however becoming merely an advocate for one particular side.

She goes on and makes comments about:

Attaching the CESD's position to the Office of the Auditor General was not intended to restrict the CESD's mission and role to that of an auditor. And yet, this is what the position has become.

She goes on to say further:

The recent direction taken by the Auditor General, Mrs. Frasier—aimed, among other things, at integrating the work of the CESD group into her own reports and thereby eliminating the Commissioner's report as we have known it since the position was created—lead me to believe that the risk is now real and that this fragile equilibrium is going to be disrupted.

I think perhaps the most telling point of all is where she says:

A commissioner must be able to offer a vision, an approach, a way of acting and a general orientation. He or she must be able to debate, to promote activities, to work with departments in other ways than simply through audits.

And finally she writes, for all members to hear, especially those members who hold her work in such high esteem:

If Canada wants the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development to exercise his or her role fully, he or she must be independent of the Office of the Auditor General of Canada, because the two mandates are incompatible.

In closing, Mr. Chair, I agree with Madame Gélinas' testimony. It's unfortunate she was not able to come in and join us in person, but I would like to thank her, on behalf of all members, for her outstanding service over six years, and for her very lucid and to-the-point memo sent for all Canadians.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. McGuinty.

Monsieur Harvey, the floor is yours.

[Luc Harvey, Conservative, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Ms. Adam, the Commissioner of Official Languages, made it very clear that all officers reporting to the Auditor General were indeed independent and that politicians had no say in their actions or operations.

Over the past six years, Ms. Gélinas has always managed to do a very good job. Her work has been praised by all parties, whether it be the NDP, the Bloc Québécois, the Liberal Party or the Conservative Party. The problem arose on the day Ms. Gélinas perhaps...We'll never know what happened exactly, given the agreement between Ms. Fraser and Ms. Gélinas.

I'm still not convinced today of the need to move this position because in recent years, we have always had good results. No one disagrees with that. Today, the Liberals are proposing a change. To my mind, it's more a matter of having a different perspective on things. Quite frankly, I'm not convinced of the merits of the Liberals' motion.

As for Ms. Gélinas' report, while it has to be considered credible, admittedly, it is not completely objective, since Ms. Gélinas is the victim in this case.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Harvey.

Mr. Bigras.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you Mr. Chairman.

Everyone agrees that the role of the Commissioner of the Environment is limited to conducting environmental audits. That begs the following question: should we expand the powers of the Commissioner of the Environment? Should the position be more independent of the Auditor General of Canada?

Two models have been presented to us. In the case of New Zealand, the Commissioner of the Environment performs not only the functions of an auditor, but also those of an advocate, guardian and adviser. It's clear what expanding the functions and powers of commissioners, be it the commissioner of official languages or the privacy commissioner, has accomplished to date.

Ms. Adam stated in no uncertain terms that strengthening the role of the Commissioner of Official Languages had enhanced language rights in Canada. Therefore, we need to ask ourselves whether we want the role of the Commissioner of the Environment to be limited to a simple audit function, or whether we want the position to be on par with that of the Commissioner of Official Languages.

Since environmental protection is an important consideration in Quebec and Canadian societies, the Commissioner of the Environment must be assigned the role of advocate and guardian. This committee and parliamentarians have a duty to take a stand on this issue. Ms. Adam clearly said that it was up to parliamentarians to decide.

If we believe that environmental protection is an important societal value, then we must act accordingly and give added powers to the Commissioner of the Environment. For that reason, I will vote in favour of the motion before the committee.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Bigras.

We have Mr. Dewar next, followed by Mr. Warawa. I hope we can cut it off after those two, but we'll have to wait and see.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I just want to take us back to what we're here discussing, and that is the role of this position. Independence is obviously key to it.

When we heard from our friend from New Zealand, I asked him very deliberately about the big stick and how he saw his role. I asked him very intentionally to give us some examples from when he was involved in over 10 years of work. Did he need any further powers? No. Did he actually use his role to go after people? No. What he was saying to us was that his role was to do a number of things, but to be a steward of the environment, obviously, and to animate discussion within New Zealand.

It's very important to remember that it is a different role. If you look at the examples in the United Kingdom, with their Sustainable Development Commission, they've approached the environment and this position in the same manner; that is, that we can't just look at it as a numbered sheet; that we don't just look at how much money was spent and when. It's much bigger than that.

I think the role of the environment commissioner, as my friend Mr. Bigras said, needs to be looked at through that lens. In other words, we're talking about something that requires government to use more than just its traditional reporting mechanism; it has to have further independence to be able to do its job correctly.

I plead to my fellow members to support this motion, putting aside any partisan concerns they might have about where the motion is coming from. Know that the Liberals had promised it before; take some glee in the fact that you're watching them now come back trying to make up for lost time, and support the motion. In the words of a constituent of mine who's already been referred to, Mr. MacNeill, we really need a strong, effective, and independent commissioner, and the need has never been greater. It's time to get on with it, enact it, approve, and implement.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Geoff Regan]

Thank you, Mr. Dewar.

Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

That's fine.