Environment Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2024

[Brock Mulligan]

There was a small amount of harvesting done in Jasper, and there's also harvesting done in Banff National Park. We think that there is real value in that, from the standpoint of protecting our forests and maintaining health. It's very difficult to put a number on these things, but we know that forest management is a tool to promote the health of our forests, and we think that it ought to be considered.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

We've talked a lot about carbon emissions. We know that reducing emissions is critically important. However, when these forests are allowed to overgrow and when they are eaten out by these pine beetles, don't our famous Canadian carbon sinks become net carbon emitters when they're left to rot, especially when these fires happen?

What are the emissions that are created by leaving these forests unmanaged?

[Brock Mulligan]

There's no question that the emissions are huge when we have these types of catastrophic fires. I read somewhere that the emissions from our 2023 fire season, which was a terrible fire season, were greater than anything else. They were greater than the rest of Canada combined, just the emissions of our forests.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Ali now for six minutes.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here today and for your interest and willingness to share your experience and knowledge to help us make recommendations on forests and forest fire policies.

Mr. Wesley, in a recent article, John Desjarlais made some suggestions to “unlock the potential of Indigenous-led and forest-based solutions to wildfire impacts”. Could you tell us how greater indigenous involvement in fire management could help protect Jasper and the surrounding communities?

[Barry Wesley]

Thank you for the question.

As indigenous people, as I said in my earlier presentation, we believe everything is a living being—so is the fire. In this case, my ancestors did this before too. They did prescribed burning. That was just for hunting purposes. Also, through our ceremonies, we did a lot of that in previous times. If we can include that piece in the plan, I think it's going to work out.

We can communicate with the fire as well. We believe it's a living being. If we can have a better understanding of what it can do.... We've already seen physically what it can do, but if we can communicate with it, we'll have a different perspective. Also, there is a respect that goes with it.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

My next question is for Dr. Tracy Friedel.

Dr. Friedel, could you provide more information about how your community and indigenous knowledge have been and should be taken into consideration with regard to fire management?

[Dr. Tracy L. Friedel]

Yes. Thank you for the question.

Following on from what Barry offered, I think part of the issue we're seeing outside of the park, in other jurisdictions with wildfires—there have been a number of catastrophic fires in Alberta over the past 20 years—is that forestry practices also need to evolve somewhat. Planting monoculture forests is not conducive to mitigating against wildfires either, so there is something to be further considered there.

One of the issues in Jasper National Park, of course, is that around the townsite, there wasn't an appropriate fireguard put in place. As I said, there are a number of competing interests at play in terms of the residents, who obviously want to be safe but live in Jasper for a reason. They love the nature it provides. With regard to visitors, the idea of creating large fireguards is quite unpopular with international and even Canadian visitors.

I think it's possible, though, to remediate, restore and create fireguards and have more diverse species of trees planted in their place so that when there is remediation happening, even in places where cultural burning is happening, you're going to see that biodiverse landscape return. Those landscapes are more conducive to mitigating against future wildfires. A lot of those species, whether they're trees, shrubs or forbs, also have cultural meaning to indigenous peoples.

For many years, there was no harvesting in the park. A lot of the species that have returned to the park—traditional ecological knowledge species or native species—can actually also contribute to a return to cultural harvesting in the park in a way that isn't possible now, because many of those species have been impacted as well.

I think it is possible, certainly, with cultural burns and a focus on TEK species for restoration and remediation to really make some headway in the park.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have 30 seconds.

[Shafqat Ali, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

I think I will pass it on.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Mr. Trudel, you have the floor.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Sweet, here in the federal Parliament, most of us are aware of how our colleagues from Alberta see things when it comes to fighting climate change. However, as a provincial elected official in Alberta, I'd like to know what you feel the federal government could do to better manage extreme weather events like the wildfires in Jasper.

I'd actually like to ask you about the connection between climate change and forest fires. We know that these fires are a natural occurrence that can actually contribute to the health and renewal of many forest ecosystems. However, we're now seeing more of them, and they are more intense and harder to control, so they're becoming destructive.

Based on a study by World Weather Attribution, climate change has more than doubled the likelihood of extreme conditions conducive to wildfires in eastern Canada. Scientists tell us that, as a result of the planet overheating, summers in Canada are getting windier and warmer, as we can see, which leads to more erratic rainfall, including fewer summer rain showers in certain regions.

According to Natural Resources Canada, wildfire season in Canada is starting earlier and lasting longer, and fires are getting harder to control. In short, science indicates that, to ensure public safety, governments must act both defensively and offensively to protect people and ecosystems while also accelerating the transition away from fossil fuels to limit global warming.

In your opinion, are Alberta's elected officials and decision makers in general—including local authorities and community leaders, but also businesses—sufficiently familiar with the scientific literature on the causes and effects of extreme phenomena like forest fires on nature and people? Do you think the public, the decision makers in Alberta, are very aware of what I've just told you?

[Heather Sweet]

I thank the member for the question. I think it's an important question. It's a conversation we've been having in Alberta for quite a long time. As you know, we had the Slave Lake fire. We had the Fort McMurray fire, and we've now had the Jasper fire. We've had substantial weather events, and we've also seen that in our agriculture industry, where we've had severe drought and it impacted our agriculture producers. It is a real live conversation that climate change is real. We are having severe climate events, and as policy-makers, we need to do better at how we're preparing and responding.

In Jasper specifically, we did need to prepare better in regard to ensuring that we had more wildland firefighters hired, trained and prepared for this year's season. We had asked for that, I would say, at least six months prior to the season starting. Even when the season was ending, we were asking that we be ready for the next year's season. We need to create a joint training program between the federal government and the provincial governments to ensure that all wildland and structural firefighters are trained to the same level, that they're able to respond and that they're able to prepare.

We also need to be looking at our forest health and what is going on within our forested area. That would include looking at sustainable forestry practices and how we look at the boreal forest, which we know is known to burn because that's how it rejuvenates itself. We have to look at forestry practices. We have to look at working at government perspectives and levels of being able to ensure that we're doing things like building fireguards, that we are fire-smarting homes, that we're ensuring that people are aware and able to have the financial means to fire-smart, but we're also working with industry to help protect those areas.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Today, an ad truck drove through the streets of Ottawa displaying two messages:

“Scrap the cap” and “Your family budget will suffer”.

It was paid for by the Government of Alberta.

You're not a member of the governing party, but you are an MLA from Alberta. What do you think of this advertising, which Albertan taxpayers are paying for? Do you agree with the campaign? What do you think about the Alberta government spending money to run ads on the streets of Ottawa, ultimately to block efforts to fight climate change?

[Heather Sweet]

I would like to say that it's just in Ottawa. We have the same advertisement happening in the province as well.

I believe that we have a responsibility as policy-makers to address the issues that Albertans care about. Right now, we know that Albertans are concerned with inflation. They're also concerned with our productivity in the country and what that means to them being able to access jobs, pay their mortgages and put food on their tables.

Talking about other issues I think deflects from the fact that Albertans are, as much as we are a wealthy province, struggling with being able to meet our basic needs.

I would believe that all federal and provincial governments should be focusing on what Canadians and Albertans need, which is finding a way to make sure we have good-paying jobs, that we are driving our economy forward, that we're building export markets and that we're building good economies so people have good, sustainable jobs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We'll have to stop there and go to Ms. McPherson for six minutes, please.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here and sharing your expertise with us.

I'd like to follow up with my colleague from Alberta, Heather Sweet, just to ask a few questions.

You were just answering my colleague Mr. Trudel's questions about what Albertans care about. I would just put out there that I think probably Albertans care very little about chemtrails and Uber-style health care, but that is another thing that this provincial government seems to be obsessed with.

Ms. Sweet, I'm curious as to your thoughts as the forestry critic. In your testimony, you talked about the economic strategy and that we need to help those in Jasper recover, so I am wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that.

One thing that we know is a reality is that there are so many members in Jasper who work in the tourism industry, as you indicated. We know that many of them weren't eligible for EI. It's a very difficult thing because, of course, they would have had jobs and they would have been able to continue to make a living, but that opportunity was taken away from them by the fire.

We've reached out to the government to have them change the EI rules. We have not heard yet whether or not they would be willing to do that. We've not heard back from the minister on that issue.

Could you talk about what an economic strategy would look like from your perspective? What more would you like to see the federal government do for the people of Jasper?

[Heather Sweet]

Thank you, member, for the question.

I think we have to look at Jasper as a very unique experience in the sense that their full economy is focused on tourism. We had CN in there as well, but CN is now leaving, so their whole economy is a tourist economy.

In other jurisdictions where we've seen these fires, there's always been another, supplementary economy. Fort McMurray had oil and gas. Slave Lake had forestry. Jasper does not. What we've heard from the people of Jasper is that they lost their biggest earning potential during the time the fire was happening and then after the fire. Because of that, it's almost similar to COVID. All of a sudden, they lost every potential they had to generate any type of wealth to carry them through the off-season.

What I would like to see is the province and the federal government have a conversation about what an economic recovery model would look like, similar to how we treated COVID. These businesses need to thrive. If they fail, it won't matter if we get tourists to go back to Jasper because there will be no businesses that can operate.

We need to find a way to help them move through this gap and this period of time and make sure that they are able to have some kind of financial security, so they're viable over the next 18 months.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I know you are also very well informed with regard to the firefighting services that we have. I know that, as the forestry critic, you have been paying a lot of attention to this.

Could you talk a little bit about the conditions, the compensation and the benefits that the contracted wildfire fighters were given and about any concerns that you might have with regard to that?

[Heather Sweet]

I think the biggest struggle we've had provincially is that we only contract our wildland firefighters for four to six months. The problem with that is that we are competing with other jurisdictions across the country that do year-round firefighting. B.C. is a prime example.

We also pay the least in the country. If you look at Parks Canada versus Alberta, Parks Canada pays about $10 an hour higher in Alberta than the province does. That creates an issue around people moving through their career because they're competing with two different jurisdictions that pay very different salaries.

The other piece of that is, because it's so short term, they don't receive benefits and they don't receive high wages. The one thing I want to make sure that all members of the committee understand is that—and this is a non-partisan issue—presumptive coverage for cancer needs to be covered for all firefighters. No matter if you're a structural, industrial or wildland firefighter, cancer coverage has to exist.

We know these individuals are exposed to toxic environments that cause cancer. Every single member of the committee, I would encourage you to please look at OH and S presumptive coverage and support our firefighters.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you.

That's an excellent point, and I think we should definitely have that as one of the recommendations for this report.

I just want to be clear. Did you say that the Government of Alberta pays forest wildfire firefighters the least in the country?

[Heather Sweet]

The wildland firefighters in Alberta are paid the least out of any other jurisdiction in the country.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

That's appalling.

The other thing that you talked about in your testimony was how we need to rebuild to ensure that we are being fire smart, that we are not building in a way that puts us back in the same situation we were in.

Could you talk a little bit more about what you would like to see in terms of the rebuilding of buildings to ensure that they are fire smart?

[Heather Sweet]

First off, I want to recognize that I know there are insurance programs for homeowners or businesses that are going to rebuild. I think what people need to understand is that the insurance companies will only rebuild to the level of when the building burned down—whatever the building code was at that time. What I am saying is that, if we're going to be smart and we're going to rebuild, we have to build fire smart.

Jasper Park Lodge is a prime example. A fire went through that area 50 years ago, and it caused serious damage to JPL, Jasper Park Lodge. Because they fire-smarted their area is why JPL stands today.

Every resident who wants to rebuild and live in Jasper should have the opportunity to fire-smart, but the province and the federal government have to step up with the financial adjustment between what insurance will pay for and what it will cost them to fire-smart. However, we also need to make sure we change the building code so that every community and every building is fire-smarted.