Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 25th, 2008

[Elmer MacKay]

Madam Lavallée, I did in a sense, and I plead guilty to being a very poor one. I felt at one point like a quidnunc, a malicious gossip. I soon realized there was nothing that could be done; there was no way these two were going to reconcile. And I think you've seen some evidence of that so far at your committee.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I imagine that the person who was the most irritated after the Fifth Estate program was Mr. Mulroney. Is that correct?

[Elmer MacKay]

That would be correct.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

What information in particular or what statement made by Mr. Schreiber irritated him the most?

[Elmer MacKay]

That's hard for me to say, madame. I think, if you recall--and it's some time since I've seen the program--Mr. Schreiber didn't portray Mr. Mulroney in a very good light, and the general impression was that he denigrated him and indicated he didn't do very much to help him.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

But was there one thing in particular that Mr. Schreiber said that especially irritated Mr. Mulroney?

[Elmer MacKay]

Really, I would like to help you. I don't know of a specific incident, but the general effect that Mr. Schreiber created in that program distressed Mr. Mulroney greatly.

If I may, I believe--and again I speak with an imperfect memory--that Mr. Schreiber thought he was going to be interviewed mostly about this absurd scam that the RCMP tried to use to entrap him, and he intended to complain about that. But as the program continued, the focus shifted to Mr. Mulroney.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

So if I understand correctly, there was nothing in the program that particularly irritated Mr. Mulroney.

[Elmer MacKay]

No, and there was nothing there that particularly gave him any joy either, I guess. The general effect was that he was very upset with the program and the way he was depicted.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

So then you set about to write a memo. And this was not the first time that you had done that for Mr. Schreiber. You wrote a lot of complaints about the RCMP in 2005. You wrote to the deputy commissioner and to the commissioner to protest their attitude regarding the fishing expedition, the various investigations they had underway regarding Mr. Schreiber. You described these people as being “Mickey Mouse”. It was quite astounding to hear a former solicitor general making such pointed complaints about the RCMP.

Did you do this as well in the case of other Canadian citizens?

[Elmer MacKay]

Madame Lavallée, I've seen the RCMP do a lot of good work and I've seen them do some despicable things, particularly to informers. I believe that by and large they're a wonderful force, but to use one of Mr. Schreiber's sayings, the fish stinks from the head. I think, as one of my letters indicated, it was time the RCMP was reorganized to give meaning and direction to the many thousands of good, conscientious people who are in the force.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Did you ever write to defend Canadian citizens other than Mr. Schreiber?

[Elmer MacKay]

I may have. I can remember in the past going to considerable lengths to help an American named Warren Hart, who at that time was treated extremely badly by the RCMP. But as I say, Madame Lavallée, it's been a long time since I left the sacred precincts of Parliament. I've always had a love-hate relationship with the RCMP.

As a young lawyer I did a lot of defence work and I made a lot of enemies and a lot of friends in the force. So would it be wrong for me to condemn them? I don't. I'm happy to see improvements being made.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Madame Lavallée.

Mr. Martin, the floor is yours for seven minutes.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Your loyalty to Karlheinz Schreiber is either very touching or rather suspicious, Mr. MacKay. Have you ever been paid for services associated with dealings with Mr. Schreiber? Have you ever accepted any kind of a fee or remuneration for helping him to lobby when you were in public life or even now that you're in private life?

[Elmer MacKay]

I'm glad to say, Mr. Martin, that I have never been lobbied by Mr. Schreiber or been paid by Mr. Schreiber. It would be absurd for him to try to pay me, because I was so supportive of his efforts to try to get this project for a part of my province that needed work so badly, and it was a project that, while many were opposed to it, I thought at the time made sense. So the answer to your question is no, I'd work closely with Mr. Schreiber in that regard.

As I mentioned to you before, when I went back to private life I did some work with Mr. Schreiber pursuant to his pasta business. As a matter of fact, the exercise cost me a couple of hundred thousand dollars.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Did you get paid for that work, Mr. MacKay?

[Elmer MacKay]

No. As I just told you, I lost a couple of hundred thousand on the deal.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I see.

You were very close friends with Mr. Schreiber and Brian Mulroney. Both of these people can't be right. One of them is wrong. One of them must be lying. You're good friends with both of them. Whom do you believe?

[Elmer MacKay]

You're putting me on the spot, Mr. Martin.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

That's why you're here, Mr. MacKay.

[Elmer MacKay]

Yes, I know why I'm here.

I don't want to say that either one of them is lying.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

They can't both be right.

[Elmer MacKay]

I'm not a judge. I hope there's some way there'll be a bookkeeping adjustment or there'll be a recollection. I don't know. I find it incongruous that one says $300,000 and one says $225,000, but how do I know?

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

The disagreement goes further than just the amount of money, but we won't dwell on that.

This letter you helped to draft or you recommended sentences for--I think it went from your wife's e-mail account to Mr. Schreiber's wife's e-mail account. Is that correct?