Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 6th, 2023

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I agree.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

What I can control at this point here, and I think we can all control here, is protecting these workers at this point in time.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

If I may, Mr. Chair, the best way to do that today, after consulting the legal advice that we received.... I agree with you. I feel for these people every day. I want to get to the bottom of this more than anyone else here. Actually, all of what you see is because I took action.

What we received as legal advice is to say the best way is to have a third party law firm, so they don't have to tell that to their management. They'll be relieved from any covenants or restrictions that they have. They can tell their full story. The law firm will then produce a report for the minister. Then, on the basis of any additional evidence that I receive, we will take further action, including what you said in respect to the board and the management of the company.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I do—

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

First we need to have a fact-finding mission, which needs to be done in accordance with due process.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I do appreciate those efforts, but these people have to live through this. They have to actually continue to live through the process you just described, through no fault of their own, going into an environment that's not functional in many respects—even if you want to debate it.

What we could do, though, is at least guarantee some type of equivalency in the public service. We've done this before. I worked with then minister Stockwell Day at the time when we went to arm the border guards. One of the things we did was to actually make sure people didn't lose their job. There would be an equivalency move.

We've created an establishment here through legislation. It is at so-called “arm's length”, but I've seen many times over here that they're either within choking distance of a minister—or not—or they're at arm's length at different times. It depends on the situation. Why can't we do something to guarantee the employment of the individuals who are currently there, so they can either transfer out or get some protection that's more than just what you're offering?

I appreciate that you offered that, but again, they have to live through that for the next six months to a year.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Listen; I feel for them. That's why we took action immediately and said, “What is the best way to get to the bottom of it?” Let's be clear. So far, as you know, Mr. Masse, what we have is allegations. I need evidence. That's what we said. The best way for them to do that was not through management, and I appreciate they may not want to.... We offered to hire a third party so they wouldn't have to deal with management on that. They could report to them; they'd report to me, and then, to your point, I am willing, within the authority of the act and the contribution agreement, to take any action required. If it requires changing the board, to change...we will do anything that's required, but I need to work on the basis of evidence. That's why we've said to people, bring the evidence forward so we can have that to take action.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Mr. Masse.

We'll go to our second round of questioning. I'm going to really go tight on the timelines here, okay.

Mr. Cooper, you have five minutes. Please start.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I just want to clarify an answer you provided. Did you say that you do not have possession of a 300-page whistle-blower dossier? Did I hear you right?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

The department does; I don't.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Have you read it?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

No. I don't have possession of it. The department has that.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You mean to say that you take this very seriously, and you're willing to take whatever action is necessary. You've repeatedly said you're a lawyer, and you haven't taken the time to review the contents of the 300-page—

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I'll tell you very simply—you're a lawyer as well—that I'm not the fact-finder; I'm the minister. There are people whose job is to do the fact-finding mission. When they provide me with evidence, the only evidence that exists for them, Mr. Cooper, I would tell you, is not the allegations that people have brought. It's the report from Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Minister, I thought you would have been interested in seeing that evidence, as minister. Further to that, Minister, have you met with the whistle-blowers?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I don't think it would be appropriate for the minister to meet with whistle-blowers, because, as I would tell you—and you have legal training—the lawyer.... I'm not there to do the fact-finding mission. That's why we have the third party law firm, and we have Raymond Chabot to do that, sir.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You have said that you need evidence. Minister, there is evidence, and it's contained in the RCGT report, which made findings that are damning, which you are downplaying, including $53,580,000 that was handed out to three companies that were ineligible recipients and a further $38,400,000 that went out the door as so-called “COVID relief payments”, which were questionable: Of the 21 companies that were looked into, six of them involved members of boards who had conflicts of interest—29% of the companies.

When you say that you need evidence, you have that evidence, yet you haven't used the tools that you have at your disposal, including section 10 of the act, to fire the chair and fire the board.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I would respectfully disagree with that. If you see how it was qualified, Mr. Cooper, as a lawyer, it's called “inconsistencies”. This is not me. Those are the words of Raymond Chabot. They've not called that a violation.

Let me finish on that, Mr. Chair. Just for your information, what we have demanded as well...but now we welcome the Auditor General's.... When we saw that, we decided to do what's called a “recipient audit”, Mr. Cooper. On the basis of that, you need to go to procedural fairness in order to do that. When we saw these findings—let me put it that way—I called for a recipient audit, which is a full audit of everything under the contribution agreement—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Minister, I would encourage you—

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

—but I must say that when the Auditor General decided to do her own audit, I obviously stopped that work—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I think you've answered the question, Minister. Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I'm going to turn to section 2.3.1 with respect to the COVID payments, on which the RCGT report unequivocally states that the corporation's conflict of interest procedures were not followed and that those members did not recuse themselves.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

The report speaks for itself.

Mr. Cooper, I invite you—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

It does speak for itself, and what it speaks to is a pattern of corruption, abuse and mismanagement at STDC.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I hope you will question the board and the chair on that, but I will tell you that the rights and obligations.... You're a lawyer. I would invite you to read the contribution agreement. It is very specific as to the rights and obligations and terms and conditions of the minister. If we come to a material breach of the agreement, I can take action. If you have further evidence through the testimony of people who are going to come here, I'm willing to take any and all action that is needed in order to make sure we get to the bottom of this.