Evidence of meeting #16 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was screen.
A video is available from Parliament.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
It's not necessary, because the collaboration is constant. There is full transparency.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
Yes.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
We share, in a transparent way, information about all of our activities and our work on these issues, and the circumstances of each case. We share information about all of our activities with the people at the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. I don't see how we could be more transparent than we are right now.
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
Okay.
When the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner appeared before the committee, we asked him about the administration of the conflict of interest screen. We asked him whether, objectively, there shouldn't be accountability and questioning, a duty on the part of those administering the screen, through the Commissioner. He told us that he couldn't do that because he would be both judge and jury.
Wouldn't it be simpler for you if someone was assigned specifically to questioning your decisions? The thing is that you ask the Commissioner if you're on the right track, but there could be things that you miss.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
That could happen, but that's why we have our process, as well as another independent process with good collaboration. On the political side, we have good collaboration with Mr. Blanchard, and with the Commissioner. Given that there is engagement and collaboration among these three parties, I think the risk of error is very low.
That being said, Mr. Thériault—
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
The Commissioner is not involved in your decisions, though. He stays on the sidelines, and you advise him.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
My answer is this: We are responsible for managing the current system as best we can.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
That's the system that currently exists. You're responsible. If you have any other ideas—
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
We understand that. I don't have much time left, but I just want to say that we understand it very well.
However, we need to review the act, and we need to see whether additional rules need to be put in place for the position of prime minister to provide for accountability and decisions regarding the conflict of interest screen.
You've told us tonight that there are two cases, but we still don't have the exact wording, the subject matter and to whom—
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
You asked—
Bloc
Luc Thériault Bloc Montcalm, QC
What I want to say is that transparency is necessary. Greater transparency would also be appropriate.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
We're going to—
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Mr. Sabia, time is up.
I'm sorry.
Mr. Hardy, you have the floor for five minutes.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
Thank you very much.
Mr. Sabia, let's continue on the subject of structure. The Ethics Commissioner came to see us to say that, when a decision was of general interest to the public, there was no conflict of interest. Now, if I understand correctly, he is aware of what is held in trust. If he considers something to be of general interest, he won't say there's a problem and, when you go to see him, you won't have any discussions with him about a potential problem. So everything is okay. Is that correct?
November 19th, 2025 / 6:05 p.m.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
In that circumstance, a general measure, by definition, is not something that could create a specific advantage for a company. So in that circumstance, yes, I agree with you.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
That's in a specific way. However, Mr. Carney knew exactly what was in the trust before he got into politics six months ago. That means that he may have an idea of the extent to which, when he leaves political life, he will have benefited personally, and there may potentially be a general benefit as well. We agree. In fact, that is why he had the right to go to New York to meet with Brookfield management as Prime Minister: There was no problem because it was of general interest.
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
Mr. Hardy, I'm going to repeat myself. I would say that our role is to administer the rules that currently exist in the best way possible. These are general measures that are built into the current system.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
I agree with you. Basically, you're acting in good faith and you've demonstrated that by selling your shares. But you say you're managing according to the current measures and rules. For our part, we want to see if those rules need to be improved to make them even more transparent, and to ensure that someone who will be leaving politics does not benefit in a very personal way in the long term by providing a general benefit. That's what we want to do. Do you think the rules should be reviewed?
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
I would say that, basically, it is your decision, your responsibility. That's why you're here, to work and to look at how the current act works. It's not up to me to say that you should change X, Y or Z; it is up to you. My role is to find the best ways of managing under the current system.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
That's great.
I'd like to compare the current system with what you know. You have a good track record and you've led a number of large companies and managed major funds, among other things. Would you say that it's normal to see employees who report directly to a director set the rules that apply to that director? Was that how it was done at the Caisse, Bank of Canada or Bell Canada? Are you aware of any direct reports to a director who have to manage their director's potential conflicts? Is that done anywhere else across the public administration spectrum, in businesses or in banks?
Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
Honestly, I don't have knowledge of all those activities in the financial sector.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
However, you were president and CEO, you held the top position at companies like Bell Canada, Hydro-Québec and the Caisse. You were the prime minister of those organizations. Did your employees have to tell you or be sure you didn't make any missteps, or did an external organization do that?