Evidence of meeting #139 for Finance in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was debt.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kami Ramcharan  Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Commissioner, Finance and Administration Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Frank Vermaeten  Assistant Commissioner, Assessment, Benefit, and Service Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Ted Gallivan  Assistant Commissioner, International, Large Business and Investigations Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Adelle Laniel  Chief Financial Officer, Financial Management Directorate, Corporate Services Branch, Department of Finance
Nicholas Leswick  Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic and Fiscal Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Nicolas Moreau  Director, Funds Management Division, Financial Sector Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Roger Charland  Director General, Social Policy, Federal-Provincial Relations and Social Policy Branch, Department of Finance
Rick Stewart  Assistant Deputy Minister, International Trade and Finance Branch, Department of Finance
Richard Botham  Assistant Deputy Minister, Economic Development and Corporate Finance Branch, Department of Finance

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Specific to offshore, the government, the Prime Minister, as well as the Minister of National Revenue have been quite boastful about looking to recoup about $11 billion. Do you know what the current target for the CRA is this year for offshore? I'd like to know if it's realistic, given the issues you've had with hiring and staffing.

4:50 p.m.

Assistant Commissioner, International, Large Business and Investigations Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Ted Gallivan

We haven't had issues with staffing. We've been able to staff all of the positions. The ratio, from external to internal, hasn't been as biased towards external as we might have hoped, because I think we're open.

We exceeded the first year target; that was the $380 million. We've identified $500 million. This year it's $1.1 billion. We were at $1.1 billion by Q3. The progress to date would suggest that we are selecting the right files, and we have the auditors in place to issue those assessments.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll have to leave it there. Thank you all.

I just have one quick point I want to make. We all, in our MPs' offices, have lots of constituents who come to us with their concerns on CRA. By the time they get to us, they're at their wits' end. One thing I will admit is that I can't say enough good things about the problem resolution people at CRA we deal with through our office.

What seems to be a problem increasingly is lost information. I mean, I have constituents who have sent information in three times, and that's not unusual. Just look into that. When it's sent in, it should be somewhere, but I've seen constituents send the same information weeks apart, three times. I would expect that everybody around the table probably has similar problems. There's a glitch somewhere.

Sorry to rush you. With that, thank you very much for the information. We will reconvene with the Minister of Finance after the vote. Thank you very much.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

We'll resume this meeting, and pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee will study the subject matter of interim estimates, 2018-19, votes 1 and 5 under the Department of Finance; vote 1 under Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada; and vote 1 under the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions.

Welcome, Minister Morneau. I believe you have an opening statement, and we'll go from there.

Welcome to you as well, Deputy Minister Rochon.

March 26th, 2018 / 5:20 p.m.

Toronto Centre Ontario

Liberal

Bill Morneau LiberalMinister of Finance

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's a pleasure to be here to discuss “Budget 2018: Equality and Growth for a Strong Middle Class”, and to speak about the investments our government is making to keep Canada's economy strong.

First, I'd like to thank the Standing Committee on Finance for its work in pre-budget consultations. Your work helped us to create a 2018 budget that takes further steps toward building an equal, competitive, sustainable, and fair Canada.

I also want to thank the Canadians who took the time to submit their ideas to us in person and online.

We must and we want to make Canada a more equal, more competitive and fairer country, with a more sustainable economy. This is necessary because Canada needs the work and creativity of all Canadians to meet the challenges of today and tomorrow.

In return, the government must ensure that these same Canadians can benefit from the spinoffs of economic growth. In concrete terms, this means well-paying jobs for the middle class and for those working hard to join it.

That's precisely what budget 2018 does.

With budget 2018, we're building on a plan that respects the choice that Canadians made a little over two years ago—a confident and ambitious approach. That plan is working. Thanks to the hard work of Canadians, combined with the government's historic investments in people and communities, the Canadian economy created almost 600,000 jobs in the last two years, most of them full-time. The national unemployment rate is near its lowest level over the past 40 years.

However, while the Canadian economy is doing well, we know we still have more work to do. Through budget 2018, the government is taking the next steps in its plan to grow and strengthen the middle class by promoting equality and investing in the economy of the future. Providing all Canadians with the opportunity to realize their full potential is the right thing, and the smart thing, to do for our economy.

Budget 2018 introduces investments that will help make sure that everyone has an equal and fair chance at success. Simply put, when more people contribute to the economy, the economy is stronger.

For example, the budget introduced the new Canada workers benefit, or CWB. This is an enhanced version of the working income tax benefit. This new program will benefit more people than the one it replaces, and will put more money in the pockets of low-income workers. Moreover, the government will make it easier for people to access the benefit that they've earned. Starting next year, everyone who can benefit from the CWB will receive it when they file their taxes, even the tax filers who haven't claimed it.

The new Canada workers benefit will provide real help to over two million Canadians who are working hard to join the middle class and will lift 60,000 Canadians out of poverty by 2020.

Starting next year, all taxpayers entitled to this benefit will receive it when they file their tax return, whether they have applied for it or not. These measures will encourage more people to join the labour market. It's good for everyone.

The 2018 budget also contributes to increasing women's participation in the workforce. This will promote economic growth and benefit everyone.

According to the McKenzie Institute, by taking action to promote equality, such as employing more women in technology and increasing women's participation in the labour market, Canada could add $150 billion to its economy by 2026.

A study by the Royal Bank of Canada shows that increasing the participation of women in the Canadian workforce could increase Canada's gross domestic product by 4%. Full and equal participation of women and men in Canada's economy is essential for our future. Our economy cannot succeed when half of Canadians are held back.

The government is showing leadership and, this year, will introduce pay equity legislation in federally regulated sectors. We are committed to ensuring that women and men receive equal pay for work of equal value.

The new employment insurance parental sharing benefit offers parents more flexibility. It adds additional weeks of leave, weeks of benefits when both parents share the parental leave. This use-it-or-lose-it incentive allows for more equity in parenting and more flexibility for parents, especially women, to decide when to return to work.

The budget also takes further steps to ensure Canada and indigenous peoples can forge a new relationship built on trust, respect, and co-operation. Budget 2018 will help close the gap between the living conditions of indigenous peoples and those of non-indigenous peoples, facilitate self-determination, and advance reconciliation of rights. With new investments included in the budget, several long-term drinking water advisories on public water systems on reserve will be lifted even earlier than originally forecast.

There is more. Through the budget, the government is investing in indigenous peoples, removing barriers to their success, supporting their skills, and helping them fully participate in the economy and strengthen their communities.

Canadians believe protecting the environment is important, and the government does, too. Budget 2018 supports the development of a sustainable, low-carbon economy. The government is also promising to ensure that tariffs will be imposed on carbon pollution across Canada.

We know that science and innovation spur economic growth. That's why, through budget 2018, the government is making a historic investment of nearly $4 billion over five years in support of the next generation of Canadian research, providing increased support and training opportunities for about 21,000 researchers across Canada every year by 2021-22. These investments will give our world-class scientists the support and the tools they need for their important work that will help to drive our economy forward.

Budget 2018 offers real progress for the middle class. As Canada's economy continues to grow, the government will ensure that all Canadians share in and benefit from this success. The budget's growth-generating investments, some of which I've outlined today, are being balanced by sound fiscal management that includes a declining debt-to-GDP ratio. The federal debt-to-GDP ratio, which is our debt relative to the size of our economy, is not only on a downward track, but it's projected to be near its lowest level in nearly 40 years. Canada's net debt-to-GDP ratio is the lowest among all G7 countries.

The federal deficit-to-GDP ratio is on a downward track. It is projected to reach 0.5%. As a point of comparison, that of the United States federal government is currently at 3.5% and could reach about 5%.

In other words, Canada's fiscal house is in order, which means that we're resilient to shocks and uncertainty in the economy.

The indicators show that Canada's fiscal position is sound. This means that the government can confidently make investments to strengthen and grow the middle class.

Budget 2018 will stimulate growth and productivity in Canada, which is a good thing. The jobs of the future will depend on the ability of Canadians to innovate in a rapidly changing and increasingly globalized economy.

Budget 2018 focuses on Canada's future and the things that truly matter to Canadians. Guided by a new gender results framework, it ensures that every Canadian has a real and fair chance at success.

Mr. Chair, I'd be happy to answer questions from members of the committee, either on budget 2018 or on the Department of Finance interim estimates for 2018-19. We also have officials from the department in attendance if there are any very specific questions.

Thank you.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

We will go to the first round of six minutes. I think we can get everybody on, if we go to a first round of six minutes and a second round of five.

First up is Mr. Fergus.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister. I am very grateful to you for listening to the Standing Committee on Finance. Indeed, many of the recommendations we had proposed, particularly with regard to investments in science and international development assistance, are reflected in this budget, which we can describe as feminist. Thank you very much for listening to our committee and to Canadians.

Rather than take a national perspective, I would like to focus on a very important issue for the people in my Hull—Aylmer riding, which includes a large number of public servants. Under the previous government, these people were hit by several budget cuts, and the value of their work was not respected. The last straw is Phoenix and the dismissal of all the HR professionals before the launch of this pay system.

I was really happy to hear the government announce that it would reflect on post-Phoenix. I know my constituents and probably tens of thousands of other people in the national capital region share this sentiment. Can you tell us more about this?

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

You're right; Phoenix is a big challenge, and we decided it was very important to invest to improve the situation.

I guess the frame of reference I would take in thinking about Phoenix is one that considers the context that we found ourselves in when we came into office.

In my private sector life, I have been involved in many implementations of human resource systems, pay systems, and pension systems. I really had never encountered a situation where the people who were intended to actually implement the new system were let go in advance of the new system being put in place. We found ourselves in quite an unfortunate situation, one where the talented people who were required to implement the new system frankly just weren't there. This made it a very difficult situation. Obviously, the Phoenix implementation has created enormous problems for a huge number of people who work for the federal government.

We've taken this issue very seriously. We've already made significant investments. We made a commitment in this budget, not only that we would rethink how we can best deliver pay services to federal government employees to ensure they get paid appropriately and on time, but also that we would have the right system going forward for the long term.

In that regard we made a significant commitment in Phoenix over the long term of hundreds of millions of dollars, knowing that we need to get this right. It's not acceptable that federal government employees aren't paid properly, and the fact that we found ourselves in this difficult situation doesn't relieve us of the responsibility of getting it right, and that's what we're going to do.

I will tell you that we will stay on this until every single employee is appropriately paid and until this continues to be the case every single bi-weekly pay cycle.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC

I really appreciate that, Minister, thank you very much for that commitment.

Another aspect of the budget—or a part of the measures that were taken by the government—that will also really make a big difference for the people in my riding, especially people who work outside of the public service, is the Canada workers benefit. That is probably one of the biggest social policy initiatives of a federal government. That along with the Canada child benefit are probably the two biggest social programs that will make a real difference for getting people out of poverty.

I was wondering, Minister, if you could again talk to the values that underlie that and where we go from there.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Maybe I could start with the overall frame. What we're trying to achieve, both in this budget and more broadly, is to make sure every Canadian has a real and fair chance at success. The newly named Canada workers benefit is about encouraging people who aren't in the workforce, who are paid at a lower rate, to get into and stay in the workforce.

We know, first and foremost, that we need to get to the people who are actually in that situation, so we did two things this year. First we made sure that people who are eligible for the Canada workers benefit can automatically get it. We found that in many situations people who were filing their taxes on paper weren't getting access to the Canada workers benefit, so we put in place an approach to make sure that everyone could get access to it. That's critically important because we're dragging people into the system who wouldn't otherwise be there, providing them with encouragement to get into work and also an advantage when they're in work so they can stay there. Then we increased the amount. That provides slightly more income for people in lower-income jobs and it provides it farther out on the pay scale, so we hit a larger number of people with that workers benefit.

Again, the issue is that, in the face of a demographic challenge, we need to be thinking about how everyone can have access to the workforce. It's clearly the case that people at the lower end of the income scale are seeking work. This is an encouragement for them to do so, and it will help all of us because it will make the economy more successful if we find a way to get more people engaged in work. We think this is really one of those programs that help the people who are most challenged in our economy. By helping those individuals, we help everyone by making our economy more successful.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Thank you both.

Turning to Ms. Raitt, you have six minutes.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON

Minister, thanks for being here.

Minister, your budget is your responsibility and whether or not you succeed on the gender aspect is going to be at your feet. The word “gender” is mentioned 358 times on 368 pages, so I understand fully that this is something you are putting forward, but it's going to be your leadership and your willingness to implement that are going to matter. Otherwise we're going to have lots of very disappointed Canadian women out there.

Now, Minister, it makes sense for us to take a look at your track record when we determine whether we can trust you to implement what you say you're going to do. I would start with Morneau Shepell, where you were executive chairman, and—as you know because you know your own statistics—at most on your board, you had three out of nine positions occupied by women. In your senior management team, you had three out of 11 senior managers who were women. In your current board mandate, in your governance charters, in your nominating charters, there is no mention of diversity, inclusion, or gender. The focus is on competence, capability, and qualifications. In your annual report, going all the way back to 2011 never once in the analysis of risk to your former company did it ever mention not hiring women. I say this is important because you wrote in your budget that the main focus areas are more women in senior management positions and more company board seats held by women because it leads to better decision-making.

When did you determine that it was better decision-making to have women around the boardroom table, Minister?

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

These are really important questions. Like any other company in Canada, the company I was formerly associated with needs to ask itself the questions about how it can be most successful.

What I will tell you is that the company you are referring to, Morneau Shepell, I no longer have any association with whatsoever. I resigned in the fall of 2015 and have subsequently sold all my shares in that company, so I hold no responsibility for any of those statistics you identified.

What I can tell you is that, during the course of my business career, I found the effective way for us to be successful included trying to promote people who were highly effective, and promoting women was an important part of that objective. In making—

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON

They never made it to the C-suite, Minister.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Actually you are incorrect. I'll—

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON

Three out of 11 is abysmal.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Sorry, you are incorrect. The person I appointed as chair of Morneau Shepell on leaving was, in fact, a woman, as you might know.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Minister, Madam Raitt—

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON

She is still a woman, and indeed she was paid less than any other director in 2012 when you were there.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

You know, I fail to understand—

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Wayne Easter

Are we here to talk about the budget or Morneau Shepell? Let's get to the budget.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON

I'm sorry, I got off track. Let's talk about Finance Canada then, shall we, Mr. Chair?

In Finance Canada there are seven women on senior staff either at associate level or at ministry. At the assistant deputy minister level, four of them are women. Four out of 11, Minister, that's your department. What's your response?

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

My response, in terms of my previous and current experiences, is that by promoting more women to senior roles, we have a more effective ability to be successful. That's certainly the approach that we're taking at Finance Canada. It's the approach that we've taken across government. Our approach to filling leadership positions in the government appointments and offices has been to seek qualified people in every position, of course, but also to do it in a way that ensures that we get to a gender-neutral approach to how we move forward.

This has been my experience over the course of my career, and we'll continue to move forward to try to make sure that we deal with what has been a challenging situation for women, whether it's been previously in business or now in government, to make sure that we get it right over the long term. That's the commitment that we've made since we've come into office, it's a commitment that was clearly demonstrated with the 358 references that you identified this year, and we'll continue with that approach going forward.

5:40 p.m.

Conservative

Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON

Minister, those are just words on a page. It's your actions that matter to us. When I say “us”, I mean all women who are trying to do better in the workforce.

Finally, Minister, you have direct control over your office, and you have six senior posts. You have director of communications, director of parliamentary affairs, chief of staff, and you have three senior advisers. Out of those six staff, the most senior staff to the Minister of Finance, you have one woman. Can you explain to me why you only have one woman in your senior staff?

5:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bill Morneau Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

What I can explain to you is that in our government broadly, in my role, whether it's in my office or in my role in working with the department, we will seek to ensure that we have successful operations, and also that we encourage the best and the brightest, especially women, to take on leadership roles. That will be our continuing approach. We believe in our budget this year that we've shown ways that we can actually achieve those goals, both now and in the long term, because we know it will make a difference. I think that has been demonstrated quite clearly.