Evidence of meeting #14 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishermen.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bobby Jenkins  Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association
Donald Johnston  President, Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association
Jim Jenkins  Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association
Linus Bungay  Operation Manager, Ocean Choice PEI Inc.
Danny Arsenault  Vice-President, Prince County Fishermen's Association

1:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

We're ready to begin again.

I'd like to thank you gentlemen from the Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association for coming today to meet with us.

My understanding, Mr. Jenkins, is that you're going to do the speaking. We have two Mr. Jenkins, actually, so whichever Mr. Jenkins is going to make the presentation, you'll have 10 minutes to make your opening presentation. The members have set times as well, which we will try to adhere to in the interests of hearing everyone here today. Generally, I only cut the members off.

Please proceed, Mr. Jenkins.

1:05 p.m.

Bobby Jenkins Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I don't think it will take me any longer than 10 minutes, anyway.

On behalf of the Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association, we would like to thank you for the opportunity to meet with your committee and share a number of our concerns. We would like to extend a warm welcome to you and hope your visit to P.E.I. is both pleasant and productive.

Before we begin to outline a few of our issues, I would like to take this opportunity to correct some of the incorrect notions of fishermen and their industry.

When the normal person hears that one is a lobster fisherman, they immediately think of a fisherman who has lots of money, a big house, a four-wheel drive, and is living the high life. Nothing could be further from the truth. We had a few seasons in which we were fortunate to earn a decent living. In the past 15 years in our area, the bottom has dropped out of the fishery, and there are few alternatives to make a living.

Let me give you a few examples of how our costs have increased and how our income has shrunk to dangerously low levels, a few examples of costs, say, 10 years ago and today.

Item one is bait. Ten years ago it was 15¢ a pound; today it's 75¢ to 90¢ a pound. We use approximately 1,500 pounds a week. Multiply it by nine. Labour was $400 a week 10 years ago and it's $800 to $1,200 a week now, average 10 to 12 weeks. Fuel 10 years ago was 20¢ to 25¢ a litre; now it's 70¢ to $1.40 per litre. We use 200 to 400 litres per day.

Insurance rates 10 years ago were $400 a year; today they are $3,500. For docking fees most of us paid nothing 10 years ago; today it's $700 to $1,000. Maintenance 10 years ago was $2,000; today, it's $5,000 to $7,000. A new propeller 10 years ago would cost $500; today it's $1,500 to $2,000. You could build a trap 10 years ago for $20; it's $60 now.

Our lobster prices have been shrinking. In 2005-06, we received $5.50 a pound for canners and about $6 a pound for markets. In 2008, we received $4.25 a pound for canners and $4.50 for markets, with no rebates. In 2009, we have heard of prices of less than $3 a pound for canners and maybe $3.50 for markets. If Nova Scotia has a good season in April, this will shrink to even lower levels.

What is the reason we are covering these items? Quite simply, fishermen are not living the high life a lot of people think they are. We have exhausted most of our credit limits and are on the verge of collapse. If we do not receive some assistance this season, we'll see quite a few of our colleagues go bankrupt. That's the position we find ourselves in.

I'd now like to take you to unemployment insurance. We want you and the members of this committee to know that we appreciate the government's vision in allowing our members to draw down unemployment insurance benefits. Without this assistance, we would not have been able to survive as long as we have. We are grateful for this program, for without it we would not be able to continue on in our fishery.

There is one problem we will be facing that has not come up before. With the reduced prices for lobsters, the possibility of having fewer buyers and the problem of not being able to sell our entire catch each day, a large number of our fishermen may be facing the problem of not qualifying for EI benefits this year. Combine this with the lower lobster prices and the increasing harvesting costs, and we will be faced with the possibility of not qualifying for these benefits. If this happens, we will have an even more critical situation on our hands.

We have a suggestion on this topic for you to consider. Seeing that a very real outcome is that a number of our fishermen will not qualify and also given the reduced income from lobster, we would like you to consider recommending to your colleagues in Parliament the concept that they pass policies or regulations that will allow fishermen to qualify for EI benefits based on their earnings or income earned in 2008. This would be applied to the years 2009, 2010 and 2011.

This would allow the fishermen to have a financial safety net in place, and they could concentrate on working with the government on improving the long-term stability of the fishery. We are willing to discuss this further if you wish.

Regarding rationalization of the fishery, first, what is rationalization? To us, it is putting programs in place that would reduce the number of fishermen in the industry while allowing those who are willing to exit to do so with some funding.

We are fully aware of the negative feelings generated when fishermen suggest licence buybacks or some type of financial assistance. When we look at the automotive industry, we hear the term “billions” being mentioned. In agriculture, the list of subsidies and assistance has been more than generous. Are we complaining about these expenditures? No. We are proposing some consideration for fishermen and their plight. We are not asking for assistance for nothing. We have prepared a document, “Planning for the Future”, which is attached to this document.

In short, the fishermen in our lobster fishing area have offered to reduce the number of traps from 300 to 250 in the spirit of being partners with the federal government. This would mean 65 fewer lobster licences in our district. We would reduce our trap numbers if the government would buy out an equal number of traps. To do this, we think the cost would be 65 licences times $200,000 each. This single action would reduce the trap fishing effort by one-third of the total fleet in our area.

We understand that the Prime Minister has a $3 billion fund to assist in such stabilization programs. We're asking for $13 million of that $3 billion. It's a very small investment to save our industry, and not only that, but our organization has offered to operate the program to reduce the costs to the government. We would like to explore this proposal.

Regarding wharves and infrastructure, we will not dwell on this topic other than to say we really need some upgrading to our wharf and infrastructure facilities. In some of our ports, we don't have adequate fresh water. Electrical circuits are deteriorating. The wharf structures are decayed and falling in. We need dredging as well. We do not have any washroom facilities.

We met with your committee last fall and put forward a number of proposals. We would recommend that Fisheries and Oceans work with each port authority and plan a list of needs and rationales for their use. As money is made available, it would target the most urgent needs in the area. We would be willing to further discuss this issue.

We have two final items that we would like to put forward for your consideration. The first is to have our lobster products certified as being sourced from a highly managed fishery in an environmentally sensitive manner. Many consumers are demanding this type of certification before they will purchase a lobster product. We need the assistance of both levels of government to make sure our industry is a world leader in having their products certified.

Our final item deals with the needs and resources of our conservation and protection efforts by DFO and the industry. We feel that more resources have to be funnelled to the field activities of the fisheries officer division.

In addition, we would like to suggest that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans instigate a program of having reserve fisheries officers who could be trained and employed as required. Is this a new idea? No. The RCMP has such programs, and the Canadian Coast Guard has a whole regiment of people trained and ready to be employed in a time of need. Why couldn't Fisheries and Oceans follow a similar plan?

In summary, we want to again thank you for the opportunity to share our concerns with your committee and to lay before you some of our critical concerns. We would be willing to discuss these topics, or other questions you may wish to pose.

Thank you, on behalf of the fishermen from the Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much, Mr. Jenkins.

We're going to begin with Mr. Andrews.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. It's a pleasure to be here with the committee this morning.

I understand totally where you're coming from on the issues relating to the lobster fishery and the fishery in general. Our fishery back home in Newfoundland will start tomorrow, and the crab and shrimp fisheries are going to be in very similar circumstances this year. It's going to be a challenging year for all fishermen, whether it's lobster, crab, or shrimp.

There are a couple of questions that I'd like to pose--one that you didn't bring up but we'll get into, and the other one you did touch on.

Earlier today we talked about pounds for lobsters. Some of the processor companies have these pounds, and it was suggested that there should be a community-type pound for fishermen. I'd like you to elaborate a little on that. How useful would that particular initiative be for fishermen?

The second thing you brought up is EI. We haven't had a chance to have a good discussion on the EI fund. That's going to be on the back end of this year's fishery, which will be just as important. You alluded to spreading it out to 2011. Maybe we could get into a bit more detail on that. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

In the recent budget it was announced that there would be an extra five weeks of EI. That doesn't apply on P.E.I; it's not going to help anybody here. We need to look at the EI system and how it can help us. I hope this will give you a window of opportunity for us to hear more detail on that.

1:15 p.m.

Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Bobby Jenkins

Don is going to speak on EI, and I'll do it on the pounds.

1:15 p.m.

Donald Johnston President, Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

On EI we came up with that scenario we mentioned earlier. It has to come out fairly soon, because of the “ma and pa” operations where people are.... It could be that we are fishing to go in the hole to get our EI status. If this were put in place, we'd be able to go out maybe three days a week instead of every day in an effort to accumulate the high catch we need to qualify for EI. If we did this and qualified from last year's earnings, it would take an awful pile of stress off the people. If it did happen to come in and the fish were a poor price, you would still have your employment insurance benefits coming in, regardless. It wouldn't force you to fish and go in the hole. That was our idea with that.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Scott Andrews Liberal Avalon, NL

Fair enough.

Maybe you could explain for all committee members how EI works for fishermen, because I don't know if all of them are familiar with how you just explained it.

1:15 p.m.

President, Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Donald Johnston

It works on a money amount for us. I am not really sure what that amount is, but it is so much after your boat. I think 25% comes off your boat, and I think you need roughly $12,000 after expenses and everything to qualify for EI.

Anyhow, that's the way it is. And then there are two claims that you can go through during one season. But the thing is that if you have a husband and wife operation, that $12,500 turns into $24,000 clear, and it makes it pretty tough, because we're not catching that many fish. If you want to do the math, and you're talking of a price that's maybe as low as $3 and a pretty good catch in our area of 10,000 a year, that's $30,000. When you take your expenses out of that, you're not going to qualify.

I hope you understand it now.

1:15 p.m.

Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Bobby Jenkins

To touch a little further on what Donnie was saying, last year that was the price we received for lobsters. We had a lot of fishermen last year who just barely made it. If this doom and gloom continues in the fishery that we're hearing of now, a lot of people won't make it this year. That's why we put that scenario in our report.

1:15 p.m.

President, Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Donald Johnston

The goal is that if it goes into place and you don't need it, then you don't need it; and if you need it, you get it. It is not really doing anything extra if you don't need it.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Lawrence.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair., and welcome, boys.

You're on the ground. You know what's going on around the sea. You have a good understanding. There are always things going on that you have to be careful of, and it is not the fault of any particular government. I just want to say that. But all governments have to be careful of what takes place in the deals that are made.

I just want to bring this up to the committee, and I am sure you understand. It's the Doha Round of the WTO. In my opinion, we have to be very, very careful here, and I would like any of you to expand on it.

In the Doha Round, if anything were definitely not acceptable, it was a red light issue. If it was discussable, it was a yellow. If it was passable, it was green.

In the Doha Round, EI, the capital gains tax exemption, the small craft harbours repair program, and even the gas tax card that you have were all red light issues. That means that if that deal were signed and the rules were followed, you would lose those programs.

Would you like to comment on that?

1:20 p.m.

Jim Jenkins Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Thank you.

Lawrence, you bring up an excellent point, as usual. You hit the nail right on the head. The fishermen in the Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association are very concerned with this issue. You've raised this a number of times, and we commend you on that.

The government, whether Liberal, Conservative, or whatever, should work as a team to protect the communities and the fishermen--whether they're from Newfoundland, P.E.I., Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, or British Columbia--to make sure these programs are not counted as subsidies, and they should make every effort to protect the community network.

What's happening is that the community-type networks are breaking down. They're getting weaker and weaker, forcing fishermen against their will to seek other types of employment: move to the west, move away, get out of fishing, or find other employment to subsidize fishing. They have no other choice. So your point is very important: for all levels of government to work collectively to ensure those safety net programs are maintained.

I think you should keep in mind one point, and that is that we thought the lobster fishery last year was in bad shape because we had lost 25% in the price. Our fuel prices and our other costs have risen astronomically. This year we're going to lose probably another 25%, bringing it down to about 50% of the normal price, and maybe even lower, depending how they do in Nova Scotia. So our fishermen here may be facing a double crisis: first, the crisis whereby they may not be able to make a reasonable living at all; and second, they may not qualify for EI, which gives them a second slap. This will lead to a much higher incidence of bankruptcy and make the communities weaker than they are now.

So we would ask your committee to work with the government. I know this is difficult when you're in Parliament, but if you could somehow set aside your political beliefs and differences with all the other parties and work as a team to achieve those goals, I know the fishermen in eastern Canada would certainly appreciate your efforts.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Lawrence MacAulay Liberal Cardigan, PE

Thank you very much.

Most likely all the committee is aware, but just in case not, so many times things can happen a long piece away that can have a devastating effect on industry. Today governments within the countries don't have all the say. All these trade deals are signed, and governments can't make the rules they wish to make. So it's very important before you sign a trade deal that you understand exactly where it's going to bring you. That's why I wanted to bring that up.

I wonder if you wish to expand on the buyback program or retirement program and particularly where you fish, Donnie and Bob.

1:25 p.m.

Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Bobby Jenkins

If I may, Lawrence, I'll answer that question as fast as I can.

Getting back to the buyback, we're wide open here. We'll be at the table if you come. Put something on paper and give it to us, we'll look at it and we'll take it to the fishermen to see what we've got. We're not going to turn anything away. We don't have the money to do it, obviously, or we wouldn't be looking for it.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you very much, Mr. Jenkins.

The other Mr. Jenkins.

1:25 p.m.

Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Jim Jenkins

I have just one brief comment. I think Lawrence has brought up a very appropriate topic.

If you look at the various programs that the fishermen are considering for buybacks and lobster buybacks, I'd like you to take particular notice, if you would, that as far as I can recall, with none of the programs are we asking, “Give it to me free. I don't want to pay anything. I don't want to be part of it; just load my basket up with money.” Nobody is saying that.

The Southern Kings and Queens and the other organizations working under the PEIFA are saying we will put something forward. In the Southern Kings and Queens, what they have offered to do is to give up 50 traps. That is close to 20% of their fishing capability. That would equal 65 licences, and they're asking for matching funds from the federal government.

So in actual fact, the fishermen, in essence, are paying for half the program and they're asking the federal government to pay for the other half. I think that's an important change from buybacks that we had in the past, when governments footed the whole bill.

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Mr. Jenkins.

Monsieur Blais.

1:25 p.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I will try to be as efficient as Lawrence. In fact, I will time myself mentally and make sure that I ask my questions before my time is up. I wish to congratulate Lawrence for his work in the area, as well as in committee. He was in the room earlier, when I said this, but is now sitting next to me.

This committee is made up of representatives from the four political parties. I have been a member of this committee for the last five years, and served as MP for the last nine years, if you also consider the time I was serving as an assistant. I can tell you that the level of teamwork here is great, something that cannot be found elsewhere, unfortunately. We may have political disagreements, but this isn't a problem. However, when we address crucial subjects such as the future of fisheries, we are all unanimous, regardless of whether we are discussing small craft harbours, the lobster industry, or the industry at large. Our group works very well together, in a spirit of collegiality. In fact, we are even capable of partying together.

The first question I wish to ask you concerns employment insurance. I represent the riding of Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, and what drove me to enter federal politics was the unemployment insurance issue. I continue to talk about unemployment insurance because by using the term “employment insurance”, there's a whole aspect of the reality which is forgotten, the aspect of seasonal unemployment. Seasonal unemployment affects many of our communities. When people are unable to receive employment insurance, they must leave their hometowns, which they love very much. I know that members of the committee agree with me, but I do wish to add that money used for unemployment insurance goes back to the community. It is invested. People who receive unemployment insurance benefits spend money in convenience stores, supermarkets, and elsewhere. This is why, to my mind, this money is being very well invested. While waiting for full employment, be it in the wind energy sector, or other sectors, I believe that it is imperative to maintain unemployment insurance.

I, for one, must work on the famous seal issue, but as Lawrence pointed out, we also have to address other international issues such as subsidies that are considered prohibited subsidies by countries such as New Zealand, in particular, or even the United States. These countries always end up losing sight of common sense. To say that these funds, used to refurbish harbours or administer an employment support program are prohibited subsidies does not make any sense. The government must support communities such as ours, namely through the provision of such programs.

I'd like to better understand your suggestion. I know that there have been questions on unemployment insurance. As I understand it, the argument is the following: given the fact that 2008 income is considered as income for 2009, 2010 and 2011, it would be possible to allow people to become eligible, seeing as they would not be in 2009, 2010, 2011 because they would be earning less. Is this correct?

1:30 p.m.

President, Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Donald Johnston

Even the plant workers, as you mentioned, could also fall under that criterion. It's not our avenue to speak for them, but where they would have low hours in the plants and everything, they could fall under. But for 2008, as Bobby mentioned, a lot of fishermen had a hard time. It's not like it was years ago, when we had the groundfishery and when the lobsters were down a bit you'd go groundfishing. Basically here on the south side we've got our lobster fishery, we've got a herring fishery, and herring fisheries are pretty nearly non-feasible to go at. So we are totally relying on the lobster.

The way things are looking in some places, they're doing good catches. But in our area we're at 10,000 and some are less. It is just hard to meet the criteria, and I think that under this recession, if we could get a three-year delay and go with the 2008 landings, and even if the plant workers could fall under the same thing and go under their hours for the next three years too, it would take a lot of anxiety out of the communities, I'll tell you that, because it is a big concern.

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Raynald Blais Bloc Gaspésie—Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Mr. Jim Jenkins.

1:30 p.m.

Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Jim Jenkins

There's one other aspect to the EI program. It would not only provide a financial base for our fishers to be able to continue on in the fishery itself, but you mentioned a very important factor, and that is how you keep communities together, how you build the fabric of the community. The EI program is part of that. It's not the total amount, but it is part of that. I'm very pleased to hear that you take it to heart and make it an issue whereby the fishermen in your communities would benefit from your efforts.

There is one other thing about EI. If the government had made a decision to allow the 2008 standards to remain in place and automatically roll them over for 2009, 2010, and 2011, this allows the fishermen another opportunity. It allows the fishermen to concentrate on surviving the crisis in the fishery itself. They would be able to work with processors to look at quality. They would be able to look at various other types of programs.

One thing I believe this gentleman from Newfoundland said, talking about pounds...I believe you had mentioned that earlier. Well, that is, by the way, a very significant point. We can keep lobsters here, for example, in the spring season in the month of May without a lot of problems. When it goes into June, the storing of lobsters becomes a huge problem; therefore we suffer many losses. My background is in marine biology, and I was a fisheries manager with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans for 33 years. Those types of problems you're talking about—the storage, handling, and quality of lobster—are paramount if you're going to put out any type of product.

I have one final thing. My friend here from the Magdalen Islands mentioned that they work on the seal hunt and the promotion of the seal hunt, etc. We have a similar situation in lobsters, in that lobsters are continually coming under the watchful eye of many of these wildlife groups, and they want them to come from a well-managed, sustainable type of fishery and they want them treated well, etc. It's another issue we will be facing in the next few years. So what we would like to do is work with both levels of government to face that issue and overcome that as being a problem. We want to turn that into an advantage in the fishery.

1:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rodney Weston

Thank you, Mr. Jenkins.

Mr. Stoffer.

1:35 p.m.

NDP

Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Again, gentlemen, thank you very much.

Bobby, every time I've heard you speak it has always been direct and to the point. Thank you very much for that.

The FRCC report made a recommendation regarding the buyout. I want to read it to you and I'd like to get your reaction on it:

The FRCC supports options that involve self-rationalization within the industry. The FRCC concludes that a government-funded buyout of licenses is not an effective means to deal with the over-capacity in the lobster fishery. If it is decided that a buyout is preferred then it should be done in conjunction with other mechanisms that will ensure that the fishing effort is not allowed to increase following a buyout.

Bobby, you had indicated $200,000. I assume that was for the licence. Am I correct?

1:35 p.m.

Southern Kings and Queens Fishermen's Association

Bobby Jenkins

That's correct, Peter. That would be for the licence.