Fisheries Committee on March 12th, 2020

[Adam Burns]

Redfish stocks are high and this species could be an option.

[Frédéric Beauregard Tellier]

I manage a program that fights aquatic invasive species. To answer your question, I would say that it's always better to use native species than invasive species.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Okay. These invasive species would need to be farmed for supply purposes.

[Frédéric Beauregard Tellier]

This is precisely where the problem lies, because the farming poses the risk of introducing the species into our ecosystem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Gill.

We'll now go to Mr. Bragdon for five minutes or less, please.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the members of the panel and to DFO for being here. We appreciate your taking the time.

I have a few question I'd like to circle back to and come back to.

Obviously in the Scotia-Fundy region, it's listed as critical stock status. I believe the stocks have been declining for some time, and there have been some measures put in place since around 2001. With those reduced allotments or reduced catch levels in place, we're not seeing, I take it, the desired outcomes of the stock bouncing back. Would you say that there must be other factors involved here at this point that need to be looked at and examined besides just the catch levels, the amounts being caught?

[Adam Burns]

From a fisheries management perspective, what I would say is that as we noted earlier, the science is ongoing in identifying what those other factors may or may not be. I wouldn't want to speculate on what they would be.

I can say that for the stocks in the Maritimes Region, we are, as I'm told in my notes, undertaking a management strategy evaluation of the stocks.

This is a scientific process that creates a model, and we can test various management approaches to see what the outcomes might be. It's a growing area within fisheries management globally, and it seems to be an approach that is quite effective at finding good management strategies to manage challenging stocks.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

It seems basically that once it hits the level 1 or critical zone, they go to the lowest possible levels of removal.

Do you know what that actually means? Can you put in layman's terms what “lowest possible levels of removal” means and say how long this designation has been in place and, if it is still actively in place—which it seems it is—what it looks like in tonnage terms, etc.?

[Adam Burns]

It is correct that our precautionary approach framework policy under the sustainable fisheries framework says that when a stock is in the critical zone, the fishery removal should be kept at the lowest level possible. It's not further defined than that in the policy.

When we look at the Fisheries Act and other considerations that the minister takes into account when taking decisions, we see clearly that socio-economic considerations are also at play. One could read that the policy of “lowest possible level” in its purest sense and say that it means zero. We know, however, that for a variety of reasons, whether of bycatch in other fisheries or for socio-economic and cultural reasons, in particular with the indigenous community, that isn't realistic.

Therefore, in making decisions, especially on forage species stocks that are in the critical zone, we look at what the term means and try to find the right place, working with science, to keep that removal as low as possible.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

In your consultations and your research and your work with those directly involved in the industry—the fishermen, for example, who are being affected—does the topic of seal predation come up, and at what level is it coming up? Can you speak to the possibility that seal predation may be having a serious effect?

[Adam Burns]

Concerning the contribution that seals make to the natural mortality of herring, I would turn to my colleagues from science, who will likely tell us that there isn't a lot of evidence to indicate what the level might be. Certainly, for stakeholders whom we speak with in a variety of fisheries, seal predation is and has been for a number of years a key concern.

I will say that the department authorizes the harvest of both harp and grey seals, and there is no limitation, to the extent that removals of those species have been extremely low in recent years. It has been a long time since the department has had to close the harp seal fishery. The authorization to do so exists, but we are not restricting people from engaging in a seal harvest.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I'm sorry, Mr. Bragdon; your time is up.

We'll now go to Mr. Morrissey for five minutes or less, please.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

Slide 3 says “cautious, critical, critical, uncertain, uncertain, uncertain, critical, uncertain”. There is not much positive in the full east coast map of the state of the stocks.

My question is—and I wonder whether you have made this inference—why does the department not have more detailed, specific science on how we arrived at where we are now?

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

Thank you for your question.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

It's the answer that I'm looking for.

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

I don't really have, I think, a direct answer for that. The one thing I can add is that as a result of implementation of the new Bill C-68, major fish stock provisions, throughout the Atlantic zones—so within the four regions—science is undertaking work that is related to this, and herring is one of our case studies.

What we're trying to do with that is we're both increasing some of the targeted surveys throughout the zone—so that includes the Gulf of St. Lawrence and Newfoundland—and also looking at ways to augment some of the information we are collecting. This is relatively new and hot off the press, so we'll have to stay tuned and see if that bears fruit.

I'll come back to one of the questions I answered earlier. You know, we are confident in the science that we do provide. When we think about what we mean by the term “uncertain”, it's not that we don't know what's going on with the stock; it's that we haven't defined the reference point under our precautionary approach framework.

We do have surveys for, I think, all of those major stock units, and we have fishery information as well, so from a science perspective we can communicate what has happened and, using our population models and forecasts, we can provide some levels of prediction of what may happen in the future under various management regimes or climate regimes. However, at the moment we are not able to diagnose directly or to link either an environmental factor or something else directly to stock decline.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you. I want to go back to that, but do you have the statistical breakdown of the primary use of the herring that is harvested? Do you have it by region? Is that information available? How much of the actual catch is going toward bait and how much is going for food? Is there a breakdown on what the resource is being used for?

[Adam Burns]

I think we would know, certainly, what the commercial removals are.

Marc, do we have specifically how those subsequently break down into the various uses?

[Marc LeCouffe]

What we have is what's exported, so based on the exports, whatever is not exported is probably used either as bait or—

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Do you have it? I would like to establish what the dependance is on the stock for bait versus what is being used to export, because there would be limited consumption within the country. Most would be exports.

Could you get that information?

[Adam Burns]

We'll provide what the department holds.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Okay. I would like to have that.

The next question is about, and I quote, “predation...is an area of active research”. Could you describe “active research” for the committee?

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

There are two aspects to that. It breaks down into two themes.

Some of it relates to fieldwork, meaning field studies, mainly targeting.... It's very difficult to determine what eats what in real time in the ocean, so there are a few techniques that one can use. If we are linking back to seals, it's basically lavage. You check their diet, and there can be some fatty acid approaches. It's diet work, consumption, across a suite of species, and we usually use our ongoing surveys to collect that kind of information.

The second piece is a modelling piece, a simulation piece, so you take what information you have in terms of consumption and you try to build that into population models and harvest models. It's more of a simulation approach. It's two streams.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

I'm sure we'll have time to come back to that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.

We'll now go to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less, please.