Fisheries Committee on April 14th, 2021

[Robert Hauknes]

Yes, we have a northern troll licence. We're actually one of the first fleets to encounter salmon as they migrate back to their natal rivers. During that time, because of the way the management is of weak stocks, we have to forgo a lot of opportunities. There is a fair amount of salmon out there that is available for harvest. Because you can't differentiate between different streams, it's very hard to prosecute a fishery, which is why in the late nineties we did some charter work to try to do some run timing for DNA sampling to figure out when those stocks are....

Under the salmon treaty we're allocated some Columbia River chinook salmon to catch. We wanted to see when the optimal time was. Unfortunately, Vancouver Island stock is intermingling with that Columbia River stock as well.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

What about marked hatchery fish? Do you encounter them?

[Robert Hauknes]

Yes, we encounter marked hatchery chinook and coho.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Do they represent a fairly clear opportunity to fish, or are they, again, intermingled with the other runs?

[Robert Hauknes]

They are intermingled enough that I would say approximately 5% to 10% of our catch would be clipped fin. It's not enough to prosecute a fishery on. I would be hesitant about a catch and release, because you're going to encounter some mortality with a fish you are releasing. I don't like seeing that.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

There have been, I think, a number of comments over time. We have come at this issue from a number of different angles. This is not necessarily a criticism of the DFO, but certainly an observation that the DFO's work has been primarily around the management of the catch versus the restoration of the stocks.

Is that your sense just anecdotally, or do you actually have something a little bit more fundamental to say about that?

[Robert Hauknes]

I would say it's anecdotal. Yes, I would say they are more concerned about managing the stock and not really increasing the run sizes. They're more concerned about managing a declining number than they are about increasing those numbers.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Dr. Riddell, when we look at all the various areas that we need to pay attention to if we're going to set about restoring stocks, we see that one of them, of course, is the deep blue Pacific. It is pretty easy to assume that there's not an awful lot we can do out in the deep blue Pacific to deal with warming waters, with acidification, with the plankton, etc.

That's an assumption, but is it true?

Are there some things that you've recognized through your work that could actually be done in the deep ocean to improve the plight of the salmon?

[Dr. Brian E. Riddell]

It's a really good question. I get asked that a lot.

There's not so much that we can do to fix the ocean. The issue is climate change. These warm periods that we've had are clearly occurring more frequently. They're more intense. The warm water that you speak of is not just warm—it's extraordinarily warm. It's three to four degrees Celsius above the long-term average. That's something that no statistician would expect to see, right?

These are strong environmental trends that are causing the decline, particularly of things like Fraser sockeye salmon. One of the reasons we're seeing differences in different stocks of salmon and different species is that they don't all use the ocean in the same way. The very poor returns of pink, chum and sockeye salmon are because they are the open ocean residents. Coho and chinook have different types of life histories and use of the ocean, so you can see better returns there than with some of the others.

There is no question that we have to understand the ocean so that we can advise what we have to do to protect salmon in the future, but you're not going to change the ocean until we grapple with climate change.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Captain Temple, I have a similar question for you.

You noted the invasive species, the green crab, on the west coast of Vancouver Island. Would you be confident in attributing that invasion, if you like, of an invasive species to climate change? As well, are there other species that are coming up to prey on our salmon stocks and other fish stocks that we might not have seen prior to some of the climate changes that we've recognized?

[Capt Josh Temple]

Thanks for that question, Mr. Hardie.

I do want to preface my answer with the statement that much further study is needed of the European green crab. We're very much at the preliminary stages of understanding not only the species and how it interacts with our environment, but also what's causing this rapid proliferation, especially along the west coast of Vancouver Island.

I will say that there seems to be a perfect storm of conditions occurring here in southern British Columbia, particularly along the west coast of Vancouver Island, which is contributing to the spread of the European green crab. In areas to the south—in Washington or in California, for instance—where the species has been in existence for far longer than here in British Columbia, they are not seeing that same rapid proliferation that we're experiencing here. We do not yet understand why that is.

To answer the second part of your question about other species that could potentially pose a threat, that also requires further study. However, we are seeing large pelagics that are becoming more common in offshore waters, such as the California yellowtail, and even billfish species like swordfish and striped marlin, and other species of tuna, like bigeye and bluefin, which could all potentially predate on some of the larger salmon or even the juveniles as they migrate through those more offshore waters.

In terms of what to expect and the impacts that some of those larger pelagics may have on salmon, it's very uncertain, but they certainly should be considered a threat at this stage.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

We'll now go to Mr. Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes or less, please.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being with us today.

Mr. Riddell, since the beginning of the study, we've heard how difficult it is to balance conserving salmon populations, keeping jobs and protecting the environment.

What are your thoughts? What needs to be done to make that balancing act easier?

[Dr. Brian E. Riddell]

Thank you. That's a very important question when we talk about restoration.

The very first thing we have to tackle in British Columbia is water management. In B.C. there is a 2014 act called the “Water Sustainability Act”. It actually includes a commitment to minimum ecological flows so the water is shared between the ecosystem and other uses. That needs to really be implemented as we get drier and drier summer periods and less snowpack, etc.

The other element is that we have a long history of land use and alteration that has to be addressed.

The third thing, which we very frequently forget about, is that where the land meets the water in our estuaries, these are extraordinarily highly developed in many cases. These are very important habitats where salmon have to spend up to even about a month and where they adjust to salt water and continue to grow before moving out to sea.

There are many actions that we know are important to salmon and that can be undertaken. We heard Mr. Temple refer to the actions to take. There's the B.C. salmon restoration and innovation fund money. All of these things can be invested, but there's a lot we can do in fresh water and estuaries before we worry about the open ocean.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Riddell.

Mr. Hauknes, I'd like you to comment on the same thing.

What can we do to make the balancing act of conserving salmon populations, keeping jobs and protecting the environment easier?

[Robert Hauknes]

Part of that question is how to reconcile the two. There are so many user groups that all have a vested interest in salmon, and the pie is only so large. I think we're in a situation right now where we just don't have enough fish for everybody to get what they want. We forgo a bunch of chinook, because we have to let a bunch of chinook go up the Fraser River and the North Thompson River to get to the first nations bands up there. It's really a balancing act. I think the biggest thing is that we need more fish, and how we get there is the hard question.

In terms of reconciliation, there are other bands that have northern troll licences like Port Simpson. They have six. You're impacting their ability to catch fish and to reconcile with the food, social and ceremonial practices up in the Fraser and North Thompson. It's a hard question to answer.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Hauknes.

Are inadequate recreational fishing regulations jeopardizing the sustainability of the Pacific salmon population? Are they actually hurting salmon stocks?

[Robert Hauknes]

I do think there are enough regulations to ensure that they survive, but is that enough to maintain a harvest level on them? I don't know. That's a hard question to answer, because what are your goals and objectives? Are you wanting to have a viable commercial fishery, a viable sport fishery, a viable first nations commercial fishery plus food, social and ceremonial practices, plus conservation? If you want all of that, then probably not, because commercial fishing is kind of the scapegoat.

We're the first ones to get closed. Then it will be the recreational sector as the salmon populations go down, until you get to the point where you have no food, social or ceremonial fishery because you're based on conservation. I don't think we want to go to where we can only have enough salmon in the river to sustain themselves and not be utilized by everyone.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Hauknes.

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have 25 seconds.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Great.

Mr. Riddell, what is your position on the impact of the current recreational fishing regulations on the sustainability of the Pacific salmon population? Do you think the regulations are inadequate?

[Dr. Brian E. Riddell]

I'm surprised by the final phrase. Did you mean recreational only?

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Exactly. Does recreational fishing jeopardize the sustainability of the salmon population? Are the regulations inadequate?

[Dr. Brian E. Riddell]

No, it's efficient. We have an allocation policy. For example, the sockeye, pink, and chum are commercial access.... In the discussion about the northern troll, they're clearly focused on chinook and coho. There is a potential conflict with the recreational fishery there over allocation. In many cases, the recreational fishery fishes a much longer time over a wider area, and normally we have to build so that you have sufficient abundance of both, but they're not really in direct conflict if we manage them correctly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns for six minutes or less, please.