Fisheries Committee on Dec. 4th, 2025

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I'm afraid I have to jump in again, because we're out of time.

Deputy Minister, if you could provide that answer in writing, it would be much appreciated.

[Kaili Levesque]

I would love to.

[Ernie Klassen, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I yield the floor to Mr. Deschênes for two and a half minutes.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lambertucci, I'm going to pick up on my discussion with you.

I was reassured to hear you say that unauthorized fishing is unauthorized fishing, period, and that we have to make sure that the Fisheries Act is enforced consistently to ultimately protect the resource.

Questions have been raised concerning where directives that appear to contradict this approach might have originated. Based on what we've heard, fishery officers have been told not to respond in certain situations.

How are you going to ensure that the approach you endorse will reach the fishery officers?

We heard testimony along those lines on Tuesday as well. One fisher contacted fishery officers to report a situation involving other fishers. After checking with the band council, the officers determined that the fishers in question were unauthorized. However, no action was taken and no report was made.

What are you going to do to make sure that your vision reaches the people on the ground?

[Peter Lambertucci]

There are a few items in your question. I'll try to deal with them one at a time.

The first issue is, of course, that there was—in my research since our last appearance—no direction that fishery officers are not to enforce the law. That directive was never located, and it does not exist.

In my time since assuming the chair, I have travelled across the country and done a number of town halls with our fishery officers to try to remedy any misinformation and to provide extra clarity and accountability about roles and responsibilities. It is that the mandate of a fishery officer, and my strategic direction, that “unauthorized is unauthorized”.

I very much respect the enforcement continuum that we implement. It's essential that we do the education piece properly, and it's essential that we consult with our communities and our stakeholders as we do that job.

Moving forward and looking forward, we have a strategic plan whereby we are intelligence-supported to focus on our highest priority and core areas. We have plans for unauthorized fishing seasons and authorized fishing seasons. We do our patrols on land, sea and air, so it is a multiplicity of approaches. Then there are enabling elements, whereby we work with our partners—provincial, federal and municipal—as we take our enforcement approach for the unauthorized and authorized activities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Deschênes.

Next, we're going to Mr. Gunn for five minutes.

[Aaron Gunn, Conservative, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair, and I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank Mr. Deschênes and Mr. Cormier for some of their thoughtful questions over the last couple of meetings.

To Mr. Lambertucci, which department or government decides which areas in Canada are open for fishing?

[Peter Lambertucci]

It's our department.

[Aaron Gunn, Conservative, North Island—Powell River, BC]

It's interesting that you say that, because I have heard repeated stories from fishermen about indigenous bands unilaterally declaring an area closed, and then when the fishermen go to these areas, even though DFO says they're open, they are intimidated. Their traps are cut, in some cases, and they are chased out of these areas.

DFO is informed, but nothing is done. Why is nothing being done?

[Peter Lambertucci]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Gunn.

Similar to Mr. Deschênes, the same answer applies to the questions from both of you about law enforcement capacity on the water. We govern and oversee approximately 400,000-plus kilometres of shoreline. Within our capacities, we allocate to the highest priorities. We do see a high number of calls for service, and we have peak seasons and off-seasons—

[Aaron Gunn, Conservative, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I appreciate that answer. With all due respect, are you saying that the federal government of a G7 country is not able to enforce the law and the consistent application of the law along B.C.'s coast?

I'm talking about some of these indigenous bands of fewer than 100 people. We're a G7 country. To me, it's quite obvious that a political decision is made not to enforce the law in these areas.

[Peter Lambertucci]

The actual openings and closings and the legislation are not C and P's to generate. I would turn to my colleagues to speak to how the openings and closings of the seasons happen. We enforce those openings and closings and the conditions of licence.

In terms of not being able to enforce, we take all calls for service. They are all triaged, and we deploy with the capacity we have to the highest priorities at the time those calls are received.

[Aaron Gunn, Conservative, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I find it, quite frankly, impossible to believe that this is not.... Maybe some of the other officials can respond to these unilateral declarations by indigenous groups, but clearly DFO is making a decision not to enforce the law, even though these areas remain open to fishing, notionally, for DFO.

Do we need the Coast Guard? Do you need the navy's help to enforce these areas on the Kingcome Inlet or Kitasu Bay? Can you not enforce these areas with the $1-billion budget that you have?

[Peter Lambertucci]

I wouldn't characterize it as you're stating it. We do enforce and we are as present as our capacity allows, based on the priorities for those responses.

[Aaron Gunn, Conservative, North Island—Powell River, BC]

There's another thing I want to point out. I talked to a recently retired fisheries officer who explained this to me in some detail, and they're going to be testifying next week.

What is happening is something that I've seen happen with police in this country as well, and I want you to be blunt and be very specific and not run cover for anybody. I was told, very explicitly, that the Department of Justice would not approve charges against illegal fishing or illegal trafficking of fish or fishing out of season for indigenous individuals if they didn't have the first nations band's approval. Is that true?

[Peter Lambertucci]

I can't speak for the Department of Justice and their decision-making—

[Aaron Gunn, Conservative, North Island—Powell River, BC]

You're travelling the country talking to your DFO officials, and you seem like a very genuine person, so I'm guessing this would have made its way back to you if that was the case. I know that police in this country, like fishery officers, will stop enforcing the law if they know all of their work and paperwork is going to come to nothing because charges aren't going to be approved.

Is that happening?

[Peter Lambertucci]

C and P enforces based on the rules, regulations and laws that we have to enforce. Who decides to charge and what that assessment process looks like, as we've heard from prior testimony at this committee, rests with the Public Prosecution Service of Canada.

[Aaron Gunn, Conservative, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Can you appreciate the fact that if your fishery officers know that charges won't be approved by the justice department if they enforce the letter of the law, they aren't going to bother enforcing the law? Can you see how that would happen?

[Peter Lambertucci]

Again, I wouldn't characterize it in that way. Fishery officers exercise their judgment, and they will move forward with investigations through the enforcement—

[Aaron Gunn, Conservative, North Island—Powell River, BC]

But they're not. That's what I'm telling you. I've travelled the ride. I have tons of supporters in the recreational and commercial fishing industries, and they're telling me and giving me first-hand accounts that the law is not being enforced. That's what I'm telling you, and that's what I was elected to do here. There are other members of all parties saying the exact same thing. I hope that you take that feedback and report back accordingly.

My understanding is that it's not the fisheries officers. It's the Department of Justice. I would encourage you to throw the Department of Justice under the bus if that is in fact the case.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Gunn. That completes the time.

We're going to go to Mr. Connors for five minutes.

[Paul Connors, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you for coming out.

I want to go back to something that I was asking the minister about: leveraging artificial intelligence and the digital tools.

We all know that the larger offshore vessels have sophisticated technology and can track quotas of fish in the bays. Our smaller fishers don't have that technology. A number of them, especially some lobster fishermen and some other boats, say that the e-logs are causing them concern.

How much farther are we going to go with the e-logs, and what's the importance of getting the data on the water, as opposed to a fisher coming in and inputting it to a computer afterward?

[Kaili Levesque]

With regard to e-logs, the timely provision of data in real time helps us not only from an enforcement perspective: A scientific perspective from getting intelligence and data collecting is integral in that partnership.

It also helps for export market development and catch certification, whether through the MSC certification process or other certification processes that our industries are seeking to achieve to maximize the export value of high-quality products and to demonstrate that the practice is in place.

With regard to your specific question about artificial intelligence, it is an intent from the departmental perspective to look at how we can streamline our own operations with the introduction of AI, looking at how we can reprioritize putting people into higher-risk areas of work and action and streamlining it. For example, we have a highly paper-based process in enforcement, whereby the officers write the reports by hand in their vehicles. Can we look at the ability to use a technological solution to advance that? Can we look at how we use our high...?

We collect a ton of data, whether through science or through industry, as I noted, in real time. How do we aggregate that data to do modelling and predictive work and make sure that we're getting the best possible results?

It's also about some of our own internal operations, the back office of DFO, and how we streamline in those spaces as well.

Thank you very much for the follow-up.