Evidence of meeting #17 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was enforcement.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
There are talks of cuts in programs and the science and whatnot. Are there plans to reduce the fishery guardian program, which is already way too small? Are there plans to reduce it?
Assistant Deputy Minister, Aquatic Ecosystems, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I'm not aware of plans at this point in time. I would have to follow up with information on that.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Thank you.
Mr. Chair, you know, we have a number of witnesses.... I'm expecting some witnesses next week from C and P and from the department's investigating team and whatnot.
I'm going to read a quote from Mr. Lambertucci, from his last meeting here. He said, “As I stated earlier, if the committee is inviting fishery officers to present for various in camera sessions, that testimony would be welcome.”
Why in camera, Mr. Lambertucci?
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
The in camera aspect is as much to protect the officer as it is to protect potential sensitivities for the department. There are a number of things we do and a number of processes we have that aren't best suited for a public forum.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Thank you.
It's to protect the officer from whom?
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
The officers follow.... There's a duty of loyalty that they pursue. They exercise their judgment every day, and I have full trust in their judgment. However, the event—
Conservative
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I think that's probably an overstatement. There are things that happen in the course of a committee and conversation that flows from committee that—
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Do you trust them? Do you trust them to not expose aspects of ongoing investigations? Do you have faith in them that they could do the right thing in that respect?
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I've had the privilege of travelling this country and meeting with my officers. I have trust and confidence in my officers.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Then why would you not trust them to speak in public?
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
It's not a question of trust, Mr. Small. It is a question of just preserving some of the sensitivities that may be discussed at this committee.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
You're going to stick with forcing witnesses in the future who are in your employ to witness in camera only.
For those who are watching out there, in camera means that the testimony is confidential inside these four walls.
I've had it come to my attention that a lot of people who'd like to testify to expose what's going on inside the DFO are uncomfortable about testifying in camera because they feel that the best protection is from the public knowing what they've actually said. If retributions come their way, there's sunlight on it; it's transparent. You mentioned transparency in your last meeting here, so you believe in transparency.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I'm afraid we're well past time here.
It's an important question. If the witness could provide that answer in writing, it would be much appreciated.
We're going to go to Mr. Cormier for six minutes.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
In recent weeks, we've heard a great deal of testimony from fisheries officers, fishers and even people from public prosecutions informing us that directives had been issued to refrain from arresting certain groups of people. I'm going to name them, since the witnesses named them: They primarily consisted of indigenous groups involved in illegal fishing and things going on within the industry.
My first question is this: Do you know if these orders reported to have been received, or other orders, were issued by the Department of Indigenous Services, yes or no? The question is for any of the witnesses.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Do you know if the Department of Justice issued any instructions or orders not to arrest these groups for criminal offences, for example?
Interim Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
The resource conservation and protection program is independent. It's based on activities on the ground and the judgment of fisheries officers.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Do you know whether the office of the former prime minister, Justin Trudeau, or his chief of staff, Katie Telford, gave any orders to refrain from arresting these groups of people for fisheries offences?
Interim Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Our fisheries officers also deal with violations of the Fisheries Act committed in harbours and on the water.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Did your office, the deputy minister's office or the office of the Minister of Fisheries issue any instructions or orders to refrain from arresting these groups?
Interim Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
No, it was to take action on the ground against people engaged in illegal or unauthorized fishing.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
You understand that public trust in the justice system is important. It's also important to our reconciliation objectives with indigenous peoples. It's important for people to know that no matter who they are or what group they belong to, they'll be punished if they commit an offence.
You're saying that no one, of all the people I named, not even your office or the minister's office, issued any instructions or orders. Why, then, did everyone who came to give evidence before the committee say the opposite?
Interim Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
That's an excellent question.
We also looked at the testimony, including the Enquête program, and we heard the same things.
I don't want to mislead the committee in any way by claiming that I'm aware of every conversation that's taken place, but based on what I've heard for years now, fisheries officers do indeed have a range of tools at their disposal, such as educational resources or referrals to the public prosecution service as a last resort. Sometimes that means that fisheries officers carry out their work, particularly education work, away from the spotlight.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Okay, thank you.
Mr. Lambertucci, I will now turn to you.
I know that your fishery officers are doing a tremendous job on the ground. I know a lot of them in my area, but let's get the two sides of the medal here, both sides of the medal. Yes, we saw a thing. We saw a report on the news lately, two reports, on The Fifth Estate and Radio-Canada, that there were some illegal fisheries going on, and this is not only on first nations. We all know that in commercial fisheries also, some things like that happen, like illegal landing, for example—catches that are not reported.
If I understood you right at the beginning, or maybe it was the minister, a lot more arrests were done in the past couple of months. Can you just tell us what kinds of arrests were done, and whether it was first nations only? Was it commercial fishers also? Can you give us a couple of examples of some arrests that were made?