Fisheries Committee on Dec. 4th, 2025

[Peter Lambertucci]

Yes, it's been an active last several months, during both the off-season and the commercial season. There have been a number of arrests and interceptions of unauthorized sale, both in the Gulf region and in the Maritimes. I believe we have five active investigations that have gone forward for charge approval with the Public Prosecution Service of Canada. Through the open commercial harvest season that is taking place right now in some of the LFAs, there have been a number of inspections and enforcement activities around non-licensed personnel who are fishing, poorly tagged traps or untagged traps. It occurs in both fisheries, and it is active.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

That's fine, thank you.

Ms. Levesque, I'm going to come back to you.

First of all, congratulations on your new role as deputy minister.

Earlier, I asked the minister a question about something I've spent the past six or so years fighting. I'm talking about the sale of fishing licences, especially for snow crab, which entails a dual penalty for my region because of regulations that could very easily be amended.

Licences are being sold to people outside our regions. I understand, I'm told that these snow crab licences can be sold to anyone in zone 12. However, the spirit of the Fisheries Act is to keep licences near our communities. But that's not what's happening in this situation.

We currently have three licences waiting to be sold. What I'd like is a pause or a moratorium, whatever you want to call it, to be put in place until we can find a way to stop these licences from being sold. Each of these fishing licences provides direct employment to about five people. Multiply that by three.

Are you willing to look into this issue and stop the sale of these licences, which is decimating our small communities?

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I'm sorry, Mr. Cormier, but your time is up.

We would be grateful if the witnesses would send us their answers in writing.

[Kaili Levesque]

Certainly, I'll send you and the committee members my answer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I now give the floor to Mr. Deschênes for six minutes.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lambertucci, I have a few questions for you.

First, I'd like to know your take on unauthorized fishing, which you briefly mentioned earlier. If I understand you correctly, your fisheries officers have to respond whenever unauthorized fishing is reported. Is that correct?

[Peter Lambertucci]

Yes, that is correct. Unauthorized is unauthorized in our enforcement approach.

There is an enforcement continuum on which we deal with that enforcement approach. Along that continuum is where the fishery officers enjoy judgment and implement that judgment in terms of whether they educate, ticket, fine or pursue larger investigative pathways where it could lead to recommendations for charges with PPSC.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

You often mention this continuum, and I gather that it includes awareness.

The last time you were here, I asked you questions about the fact that some officers are handing out promotional items. You told me back then that you would investigate to see if this was the case. Were you able to do that?

As I understand it, this is what fisheries officers are advised to do, as a first step, when they encounter someone who's fishing without authorization. Is that right?

[Peter Lambertucci]

I have had the opportunity to follow up on that question. I have gone from coast to coast, in all our regions, asking for that information. There are, in fact, promotional materials that fishery officers have available to them. That is part of our pillar of education. If you look at our three pillars, it's an education continuum leading to an enforcement continuum, with monitoring and investigation as the middle pillar of that continuum.

The educational products provided, coast to coast, by fishery officers are for that educational continuum. It's for all persons in all locations, on the water and off the water. It's really just a way for us to enhance situational awareness and to education people about numbers to call, rights to fish and requirements around licensing. There's a whole assortment of educational products that we have.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

The promotional products that I'm familiar with include things like caps and waterproof bags with indigenous writing on them. The officers were told that when they're dealing with an indigenous fisher who didn't receive authorization to fish from his or her band council, they should begin by offering that person a promotional item. Can you confirm that this is so?

[Peter Lambertucci]

From the education piece of our pillar, the reason for writing in traditional languages is that it's part of our reconciliation to respect those rights. If there was a straightforward, unauthorized activity, and if it was a recidivist type of activity, there would be an enforcement continuum.

On first contact, though, as we are educating the communities, we do sometimes provide educational materials. There are no educational materials provided if, in fact, it's investigative or part of an arrest towards a prosecution.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

So, if a fisheries officer stops a member of a first nation engaged in subsistence fishing, but that person has caught a female with eggs and it's a first offence, the officer will give that person a cap or a waterproof bag instead of issuing a ticket. Is that right?

[Peter Lambertucci]

No, I wouldn't phrase it in that perspective. A female with eggs could be seen as a little bit more of an egregious offence if you are illegally fishing out of season for that product. That lobster would definitely be returned to the water, and there would be discussion on how we would pursue that. That may not just lead from an educational product.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

When is it appropriate for a fisheries officer to give people promotional items like caps and bags after detecting a Fisheries Act violation?

[Peter Lambertucci]

As I said earlier, the promotional products could be on land, on water, in schools or at community centres as part of our pre-season education plan.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Yes, when it's for educational purposes, that's fine, but that wasn't my question.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, according to my information, fisheries officers have these promotional items. They're part of the continuum of tools you were talking about. When they come across situations where they've identified unauthorized fishing, they hand out promotional products instead of issuing a ticket.

[Peter Lambertucci]

There could be instances, if it's a new entrant to the fishery, someone we are unfamiliar with or someone who is not fishing with intent to commit illegality. That is part of the judgment that the officers have an opportunity to apply. There is the reconciliation piece in terms of how we exercise that judgment, both in first nations and non-first nations types of fisheries.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

I wanted to ask you precisely that question. Do fishery officers also hand out promotional items to white people stopped for violating the act?

[Peter Lambertucci]

There are promotional items provided to both indigenous and non-indigenous communities. I want to just use unauthorized as unauthorized, and there are various spectrums of that as well.

At times, during the education phase, with new entrants or new participants in the fisheries, accidents can happen. If they are non-malicious, and if there is no mens rea or intent behind it to be malicious, this is where the intent of the officer and the judgment of the officer comes into existence.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

I, in—

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Pardon me for interrupting, Mr. Deschênes, but your time is up.

We've finished the first round of questions.

We'll start the second round with Mr. Arnold for five minutes.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses from the department for being here.

There's some corporate history in the room here, and then there are some new members. Mr. Morrissey from the other side and I have been on this committee for.... Next month, it will be 10 years. We've seen seven different ministers, changes of staff constantly revolving, including changes of mandates from the prime ministers, and changing of directives. Who in the department is responsible for briefings to the minister regarding budget allocations and producing the estimates?

[Kaili Levesque]

In the department, the chief financial officer is responsible for the ultimate preparation of the financial statements, the materials and so on. Other assistant deputy ministers also do prepare recommendations or advice, say, for example, in the development of a new program or approach and what the parameters might look like, or in the case of science for expenditures in that space, but they are always working with the chief financial officer to bring those attested proposals forward to the minister for consideration.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC]

It's all brought up to the minister to make the final decision. Is that correct?

[Kaili Levesque]

Indeed, once budgetary levels are set, then we have rules to follow as public servants in terms of the expenditures against those broad priorities, but absolutely, yes. Then we are governed by the policy cover as established by cabinet and the terms and conditions of programs as set out by the Treasury Board.