Fisheries Committee on Dec. 9th, 2025

[Barry Coultish]

What I've seen personally, and certainly heard of, is that senior members of the fishing industry, as owners of large companies that control a large portion of the fishing activity and the vessels, have direct lines on their speed dial to senior management in the region and in Ottawa and can contact them directly to talk about activities and issues. That these things can then be reflected, or potentially reflected, does not bode well for making unbiased fishery decisions based on science. I think all of us who have worked within DFO, and I'm sure in other organizations, cringe at the thought that people can phone our senior people like that and have these conversations that are potentially not based on science.

Right now, all it takes is to look at the Internet, particularly on the east coast. If you were to talk to probably 10 people in any of those fishing communities and ask them what confidence they have in the science DFO is using, I would dare say that the majority of them will say they don't believe it. It's because the information is not correctly getting down to the people who see it affecting them, and that's what I've said.

I believe C and P can play a big role in that, because we're in the uniform and we're on the docks. We hear this, and we need to be able to give that to them, because they don't respect suits, sweaters and sandals. A lot of biologists wear suits, sweaters and sandals.

I'm not saying the people aren't good; I'm saying that the good information that they're making, and the reasons, are not getting to the very people who need it, and that's why I think we can play a big role in that.

[Ernie Klassen, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Spencer, you talked about reconciliation on the west coast. It's an ongoing process. I'm wondering if you could talk a bit about how we can work on enhancing and furthering the reconciliation process.

[Kent Spencer]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

We're getting very close to time, so please give a brief answer.

[Kent Spencer]

Okay.

My answer is, more consultation.

[Ernie Klassen, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

It would be “more consultation”.

[Kent Spencer]

There you go. Getting to know the group and working more with the group will get us a lot further.

[Ernie Klassen, Liberal, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much for being brief.

Thank you very much, Mr. Klassen.

We now go to Mr. Deschênes.

You may go ahead for six minutes, Mr. Deschênes.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon. I'm pleased to be with you today to discuss this important issue, the enforcement of the act.

Mr. Spencer, you spent 35 years working at DFO. In your opening remarks, you talked about laying charges against a member of a first nation. If they are fishing for food, social and ceremonial purposes, the activity is entirely legitimate. If the individual is engaging in inappropriate or illegal fishing activity, however, the chief and band council need to support charges being laid before they can be pursued. Is that what you said?

[Kent Spencer]

Yes. Basically, in most cases, before charges are approved, the Department of Justice needs approval from the chief and council to move forward on charges.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

I gather that you witnessed cases where individuals were fishing illegally or violating certain rules. An investigation would be conducted, information would be gathered and even the prosecutor would support prosecuting the charge, but ultimately, the band council would not approve the charges. Do I understand that correctly?

[Kent Spencer]

Yes.

Charges were requested. This went to the Department of Justice. There was a note in there that the nation did not support the charges. After reviewing the file, the Department of Justice did not proceed.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Are you saying that charges were seldom approved?

[Kent Spencer]

No, the prosecutions were not approved.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Were charges ever approved by the band council?

[Kent Spencer]

No. In a number of cases, no.

What normally happens if you're going to charge a member is that, in a lot of cases, the band council will not support charges simply because they believe it's a member's right to fish as they feel they want to fish. If the Department of Justice doesn't get this approval, it's very difficult to get charges approved.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

At what point in your career did DFO give the direction to ask band councils and chiefs for approval before charges could be laid? Where did the direction come from?

[Kent Spencer]

It is part of the requirement under the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice is looking for feedback from the nation on whether they should go ahead to approve the charges. It's a standard document that they need in the file to know if the band is going to approve the charges.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Has the rule been in effect since the Marshall decision?

[Kent Spencer]

Please go ahead.

[Barry Coultish]

Mr. Chair, I can speak to some of that. I was the fishery officer in many locations in which we dealt with first nations, as well as an area chief in charge of a large geographical area. Historically—really, since the Sparrow decision in 1990, which was a key decision.... In fact, I was on the boat that arrested Mr. Sparrow when this occurred back in the early 1980s.

The organization has really moved to a collaborative approach—there's no question. It doesn't matter, again, whether it's commercial or recreational. However, particularly with regard to first nations, given the level of conflict we've had in the past in certain cases—I'm speaking about 11 years ago, when I was working—there's still an ongoing issue when it comes down to some first nations. They simply don't agree with science. They don't agree with the organization. They don't agree with our authority in that regard to manage the resource.

Now, more and more, the standard operating procedure would be that we want to have them on board, that we want to have an agreement with them. Then, pursuant to that agreement, we will issue either a communal licence simply for food, social and ceremonial purposes or one that also includes sale.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

That agreement exists, and fishing for food, social and ceremonial purposes is entirely permitted. However, a member of a first nation may violate the agreement by harvesting a resource they are not allowed to harvest, and a fishery officer may find out about it. Are you telling us today that, in a similar situation, charges can be laid only with the band council's approval?

[Barry Coultish]

Well, I think I can clarify. In the past, when actions of a member were egregious to the intent of the agreement that the band had signed, they would often approve charges being laid because they didn't agree with those actions.

When politics start to become more involved, versus the rule of law, that's what we need to focus on: the rule of the law and how it's applied. If the DOJ is reluctant, then we have to make sure that our cases are firm, our decision-making is firm and our science is firm; then there's no reason not to charge, other than the agreement. If we can do that—although the constant updating of these agreements and negotiations has to occur—at the end of the day, the minister has the ability to issue a licence, and that's what is required for anybody who is fishing—

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much.

Your time is up, Mr. Deschênes.

That finishes the first round. We're going to move into the second round for five minutes.

Mr. Gunn, you have the floor.