Evidence of meeting #18 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was charges.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you, Chair, and thank you both for joining today.
Mr. Spencer, last week we heard from the national chief enforcement officer from DFO, Peter Lambertucci. He said that DFO and fishery officers always enforce to the letter of the law and that politics never gets involved in the decision-making process. Is that true?
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Can you give examples of when politics got involved in a decision-making process?
Aboriginal Affairs Adviser (Retired), As an Individual
I would say this applies more to FSC fishing, because of the ambiguity of the situations, court cases and current litigation, and a whole myriad of things.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Maybe you could be more specific. Did you witness the Department of Justice making decisions based on politics, and not on the letter of the law, that changed over time?
Aboriginal Affairs Adviser (Retired), As an Individual
I've witnessed the Department of Justice making decisions based on new legislation or new court decisions that weren't necessarily in line with the letter of the law.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Earlier we were talking about indigenous protected and conserved areas. I asked the national chief enforcement officer about who is in charge of openings and closings, and he said it's DFO, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. However, I've heard from fishermen that openings in many of these areas are declared unilaterally by various indigenous groups, and then fishermen go up and get chased out by indigenous groups.
I asked him if that was against the law. He said yes. Then I asked why there was no follow-up action from DFO, and he said they didn't have the resources to manage those areas.
Is this true, or is there a political decision being made not to deal with the situation?
Aboriginal Affairs Adviser (Retired), As an Individual
I think it's a situation of first nations making a claim or a decision about their territory that is not in line with departmental fishing plans or departmental regulations, so there's.... They don't know what to do.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Ultimately, they could enforce the law over those given areas. They have the resources—
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
—to do so. They're choosing. They're making a political decision not to do so.
Aboriginal Affairs Adviser (Retired), As an Individual
That's at this point.
I would just say that it's a decision being made because there's no clarity on the situation. If the first nation declares an area, and then it's supposed to be open but it's not, it's an area of ambiguity for the department.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Mr. Spencer—and Mr. Coultish, if you have an example, feel free to jump in as well—you mentioned examples of charges not being approved by the Department of Justice because the first nations band did not support the charges after extensive work was put in by fishery officers.
Do you have specific examples of the most egregious cases in which you thought charges should have been approved but weren't?
Aboriginal Affairs Adviser (Retired), As an Individual
I can't say right now.
Conservative
Fishery Officer (Retired), As an Individual
I have a couple of examples.
You first framed the question about politics being involved. From a C and P perspective, I have two examples of interference from non-C and P staff, senior staff, that had an effect on our operations.
They are earlier. One was, I believe, around the mid-2000s. The other one was in 2003. They both involved area directors making decisions that compromised C and P's ability to do the job. They were both brought up and raised. In fact, I was involved in one of them as acting director of C and P, and it went right to Larry Murray, who was our deputy minister at the time. He was very decisive. That decision was reversed, and it never happened again.
On the issue with regard to the politics, we've seen decisions that occurred. There's been a lot of activity happening on the east coast and potential confrontations that have been heard about. We've heard of vessels that have been burned. We've heard of assaults that have happened. We've heard of shots fired and things such as that going on.
From an organization point of view, much of that isn't under the Fisheries Act. That is civil disobedience and so on, situations that the RCMP and other policing agencies would get involved in, and I can tell you that they do not want to get involved in that kind of stuff. They see it as a fisheries thing.
At the end of the day, communication and talk are going to solve much of that, but—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I'm sorry, Mr. Coultish. We're well over time here, and I'm going to have to cut you off. If there's more that you want to share, please do so in writing. This is definitely very interesting testimony.
With that, I'll go to Mr. Morrissey for five minutes.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you, Chair.
I have a question for the other gentlemen, and thank you for your testimony here.
I'd like to clarify your definition of politics being involved. Define the politics.
Aboriginal Affairs Adviser (Retired), As an Individual
Politics would be, in my view—
Aboriginal Affairs Adviser (Retired), As an Individual
Okay. In my view, it's interference from another group or some other higher official that will affect the outcome—
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Have you ever been aware of ministerial interference in a decision?
You're saying “politics”. The general public would look at politics as an elected official being involved. We had testimony from the director of public prosecutions who, on the record—and we will get a chance to go back—was very clear that they are independent of all elected officials or from senior people influencing their decisions.
I just want to be clear. There's a conflict between your perception, your terminology, and what the public may understand as it relates to politics.
Aboriginal Affairs Adviser (Retired), As an Individual
In terms of, say, the Department of Justice, in my view, the changes that could be made are made basically from further court cases, further things coming down the line, where it—
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
You're referencing court cases. We live in a country that is under the rule of law in the courts. All charges must respect the court decisions, and courts tend to be precedent in their decisions.
I'm not insinuating that we shouldn't, because I believe, at the end of the day.... It's not that I “do believe”; it must be, for the overall good of the fishery and conservation, that the individuals involved in infractions that clearly undermine the conservation and protection of a resource should face the full weight of the law. That's what I want to be clear with at this committee, as it relates to the act and if we have to strengthen it.
However, intermingling the term “politics” is what I want to be clear on. Is it senior managers? Is it internal politics within the ministry? Is that what you're referencing?
Fishery Officer (Retired), As an Individual
When you hear that term.... In my career, I spent a lot of time in what I would refer to as “dock talk”. That is being down on the docks and down on the boats. One job I held was at the IVQ on the west coast in the early and mid-1990s. It was to be down on the boats every time they came in.
A lot of the people who are associated with the industry—vessel owners, lease owners and so on—see politics within the DFO organization and above, up to the minister's level. Personally, I've never encountered that, and I can't recite an issue in which I felt that the minister interfered. In fact, I've had ministers on board my boat out on patrols, chatting on different things.
However, the general public, the fishing industry and first nations see politics at the regional levels, sometimes as low as the area levels and certainly in Ottawa. There's often the idea that decisions made in Ottawa that affect the west coast and east coast don't reflect the interests of the local industry and their issues and concerns—