Evidence of meeting #18 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was charges.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
I want some time to get there because my phone app is not working. I must be there.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Yes, and 15 minutes would give you another 15 minutes to get there.
It looks as though we have unanimous consent.
Mr. Deschênes, you still have two minutes.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Mr. Thorburn, I'm going to ask my question again, so you can answer. You said that before you can move forward with a charge or prosecution involving a member of a first nation, you have to have the band council's approval. Is that correct?
Fishery Officer and Acting Habitat Coordinator, Vancouver Island and Sunshine Coast, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
There's support from the band, but ultimately it comes down to support from the first nation whose member we are charging. That's a common theme. We've been in many situations in which we have found illegal harvesting taking place and have not been able to get the appropriate approvals from a local first nation.
When it comes to charge approval, because anything.... For an indigenous person, when we're charging them, it has to go through the charge approval process. On that requirement, they usually come back to us and ask, “Do you have the support of the person whose member this is?” That's usually where we get push-back.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
How long has that practice been in effect?
Fishery Officer and Acting Habitat Coordinator, Vancouver Island and Sunshine Coast, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
This has been taking place for the last six or seven years, I would say. I can't say this is taking place across Canada, just that our Public Prosecution Service is coming back to us and saying that we need to consult with a first nation and that they need to approve the charges against their individual.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Lushington, in the maritime provinces, is it necessary to have the band council's support before moving forward with a prosecution against a member of that first nation?
Fishery Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
No, we don't. There's a difference. We investigate the matter completely. The file process is that we investigate the matter completely, draw it to a conclusion, do an in-house review of the file and then put that file forward to PPSC for their review. They ultimately decide whether the file proceeds or not.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you, Mr. Deschênes.
If any of the witnesses would like to provide more information, please send it to the committee in writing.
Next, we'll go to Mr. Gunn for five minutes.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
We have a contradiction that I think requires some further questioning and investigation.
Mr. Lambertucci, I asked you at a previous hearing if fisheries officers would be discouraged...well, first of all, if the Department of Justice was weighing whether an indigenous band supported a charge when deciding whether to proceed with the prosecution. It is my understanding that you said this was not the case.
I also asked you if fisheries officers were less likely to investigate or pursue certain crimes if they knew it would be less likely for the charge to be laid, because there was no support from the band. You said that was not the case. I mentioned to you that I had heard from fisheries officers in my riding and across British Columbia that this was happening. You said you hadn't heard that.
I feel as though you could at least now acknowledge that you have heard the opposite. Can you shed some clarity on this? First and foremost, is the Department of Justice weighing whether a band's elected chief and council support charges being laid when deciding on whether to file those charges, yes or no?
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
It's not a yes or no answer, Mr. Gunn.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
I think it is yes or no—whether they're weighing it or not.
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I'll respectfully disagree with that. PPSC is independent in how they approach this situation. Fishery officers—
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Are they weighing it, yes or no, to your knowledge, or are you oblivious to what's happening?
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I am not oblivious to what's happening.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Then are they weighing it? We were told by another witness that there is a form to fill out in which they are asked whether the local band—the chief and the council—support charges being laid against the individual. Is that true? Does the form exist?
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
It is very clear that it is taking place, as Mr. Thorburn just testified.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Why would they require the form if they were not weighing it as a factor in whether to pursue prosecution? Why do you have your own fishery officers literally saying, right in front of you, that charges are then sent back and that they're not proceeding because of that fact?
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I'm not questioning what Mr. Thorburn is saying, Mr. Gunn. I will take this back, and we will have it looked at.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Okay. We're all learning things here today.
For the record, it wasn't just Mr. Thorburn. This has been coming up repeatedly, including in the session that happened just before this one.
There's another question, while we're at it. For indigenous protected and conserved areas, when they're declared unilaterally by indigenous groups, does DFO consider that area closed or open to fishing?
National Chief Enforcement Officer, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I have just recently started to learn about this issue. This is an issue in which it is sometimes closed to commercial fishing, but it is enforced as an open fishing area as well. I would have to take that away and seek some clarification on it.
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
If you could provide the clarification in writing, I'd appreciate that. I would like to say that I appreciate your spending so much time here and answering difficult questions.
I appreciate as well that a lot of these issues—it seems to me—are originating in the Department of Justice, and DFO officials are left to try to explain away what's actually going on.
Mr. Thorburn, you gave examples of having issues with charge approval when it came to FSC fisheries because there was no support from the elected chief and council in the band. Do you have a specific example of this happening? Can you think of a specific violation that occurred in which charges were not brought because of a lack of support from the band? Of course, you can speak in general terms.
Fishery Officer and Acting Habitat Coordinator, Vancouver Island and Sunshine Coast, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
As for charging those who are first nations, I don't have any good examples to provide to you as far as successes are concerned because usually, if we don't have—
Conservative
Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC
Do you have failures, though, in which the charge approval isn't given? You brought up in your testimony that it was happening.
Fishery Officer and Acting Habitat Coordinator, Vancouver Island and Sunshine Coast, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Yes, it is.