Evidence of meeting #26 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was scientific.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC
I would like a detailed written reply, please.
Thank you very much.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Blanchette‑Joncas.
We are going to Mr. Small for five minutes.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I find it very frustrating to sit here at this table—having been duly elected by the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, having been on the water and having known so many harvesters, processors and those who rely on jobs in the seafood processing industry—and hear the statements being made by our officials right here in talking about the science, the year classes, what's missing, what there's more of and all these things. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that what's being said here is orchestrated and fabricated.
That's extremely frustrating, having been a former fisherman myself and knowing the size of mackerel caught this past summer off the northeast coast of Newfoundland, off the west coast of Newfoundland, off the coast of Labrador and off the south coast of Newfoundland. The mackerel were 1,000 grams. They weren't two years old, and there were many of them.
My question is for Mr. Vigneault.
You referenced the fish sizes getting smaller in every assessment. How did you gain the information about the year-class distributions you're referring to? What was the methodology?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I would first like to point out that the science we provide is through a peer-reviewed process. It includes industry's input—
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
How many times was a seine shot around a school of fish and the fish that were in that seine were randomly sampled, weighed and then put into the various year classes they should be in? How many times did you catch fish and actually sample a body of fish in the last four years?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
In the last four years, the sampling was done in collaboration with industry, and those samples were brought into the labs to do—
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
They were caught in a gillnet with one mesh size, so how do you know the distribution of year classes? When you were taking samples from gillnets with one mesh size that were going to catch one size of fish, how can you say, beyond a shadow of a doubt, what you've said here today, Mr. Vigneault?
I know you were probably sent here to say that. You're a very good man, but how can you come here and tell this committee what you've told us when it's based on nothing? You know it, and I know it.
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Respectfully, the information I provide is based on the best science available, which we gathered through peer review. The information I mentioned about the size of the fish is part of our most recent science advice, which was published in 2025. There was a specific request to look at the model distribution of the size, and that's what we provide to fish. It's important for fish management, as the committee knows, because there's a size limit as part of the regulation for the fishery.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Okay, I have an easy out for you here.
When the bait fishery was announced and the scientific aspect of the bait fishery was outlined, there was an opportunity for the fishers who collected bait to do science and forward the data to you. How much data did the bait fishers supply to you from the bait fishery, based on lengths of fish?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
We have used samples from harvesters, because our collection program was initiated before the bait fisheries. As I mentioned earlier, we are working right now in collaboration with the FFAW to gather additional samples—to the member's point—to get additional information on the size and fecundity of the fish. All of that feeds into improving the science assessment over time.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
How can you get an accurate representation of the distribution of year classes without a research fishery that collects random samples all at the same time?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
That's what the collaboration with the harvesters provides. It provides samples from associations that are participating in our sampling program. They collect samples across Atlantic Canada so we can get representative samples in order to get the proper input into our model and our peer-reviewed science advice.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Small. I'm afraid we're past time.
We are moving on to Mr. Morrissey for five minutes.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
We have several competent witnesses before the committee today.
If political bluster solved any problems on the east coast for fish stocks, this committee would not be meeting on any problems in any particular fishery. To quote the late John Crosbie, it was political bluster that caused the collapse of the cod fishery, which he had to shut down in the late 1990s. Unfortunately, it sounds good—they're good clips—but it doesn't solve any problem.
My question for the witness is this: Did you fabricate any testimony that you gave to this committee today?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
All of the information I provide on the science side is from our peer-reviewed science advice, which is publicly available and published, or from research publications that the scientists at Fisheries and Oceans have published.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Then they are facts. The people reading them can interpret them as they choose, which is their problem, but you did not, nor did the department, fabricate any testimony or evidence that was given to this committee, as an earlier member's statement accused.
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
We didn't fabricate any information. It's provided through the rigorous science advice process at the department.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you.
That's important. We may disagree, but there has to be an unbiased adjudicator somewhere, or you see the decisions I quoted earlier that lead to the collapse of fisheries. The people who pay the price are the fishers. We should be making decisions to ensure they have a viable livelihood going forward.
I want to go back.
Could you give testimony or evidence to the committee, from your studies, comparing the large fish documented today with how many would have been in a survey in 2010? If you don't have that with you, I would like to see if you have quantifiable evidence that shows the number of large fish in a survey today versus surveys that would have been taken, say, until 2010, 2011 or 2012. Would you have that information?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
We could certainly provide that. That was part of the science advice.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Before we get into the details, is the number of large fish today equal to, better than or less than those in 2010?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
It is much less. Literally, we don't regularly see large fish that are seven years plus. Again, in the overall estimate—
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Yes. As we mentioned, those large fish are important for their reproduction. We'll do additional sampling. Again, it doesn't mean those fish don't exist. There could be observations on the water, but from all of the population estimates, our estimates are much smaller for those larger fish.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
We've seen fewer large fish in the scientific data in the past couple of years versus what there would have been in the period of 2010, 2011 and 2012. Is that correct?