Evidence of meeting #26 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was scientific.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
It's the same method that's used primarily in the U.S. and by European countries. For all of these jurisdictions, for the reason I just mentioned, the egg survey is the core indicator for the stock assessment.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
We often hear, as referenced earlier, about the abundance of schools of fish in the water here, there and everywhere. Could you explain to the committee why you may be seeing this and why at the same time, from a scientific level, there's a concern about the abundance and health of the stock?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
There are a number of species that naturally aggregate in very high concentrations of fish. Even if the overall population has been reduced for any reason, you can still have at specific locations pelagic species like mackerel aggregate and be very visible.
That's the other characteristic of mackerel. It stays close to the surface and it's very visible. You can have a large number of fish visible from the surface in high numbers, but if you take a step back and look at the entire population, you can still have depleted populations despite seeing aggregates.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
What would be the outcome if you simply made a decision based on seeing schools of fish on the top of the water in several locations, making the assessment that the stock is in abundance?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
You would likely overestimate the biomass of the fish. That would be deleterious to the population itself, because the harvest, which is based on aggregates, would be overestimated. We've seen that in other science assessments for stock.
You can maintain a very successful catch, because you concentrate your fishing efforts in an area where the population aggregates—
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
What happens when decisions are made based on that alone? How quickly do you go from a fishery to a disaster?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
In the case of a species that aggregates, there's not much between a TAC where you would see a probability of growth and a TAC where you don't see growth. It could be a conservation issue if you do not account for the entire population when you do your stock assessment.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Morrissey.
That finishes our second round.
We're going to start the third round, with Mr. Arnold for five minutes.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Again, thank you to the witnesses.
I'm not sure if this should be for Mr. Vigneault or Ms. Gaudet.
Out of the 28 recommendations three years ago, I want to focus on recommendations 12, 13 and 14. Recommendation number 12 was, “That Fisheries and Oceans Canada develop a bilateral stock management agreement with the United States for the 2023 Atlantic mackerel fishing season.”
We're now three years past that date. Could you update the committee on the progress of the bilateral stock management agreement that was recommended?
Senior Director, Resource Management - Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Indeed, Fisheries and Oceans Canada agrees with the recommendation of the committee, in that we should be working closely with the United States and having regular engagement with respect to the management of this fishery.
We have engaged the United States regularly at multiple levels over the past three years to aim for a more formal arrangement. Unfortunately, to date we have not succeeded in that, but there have been U.S. issues as well.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Would that relationship have been easier to work out two years ago?
Senior Director, Resource Management - Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I wouldn't speculate on all the reasons why. I know that we were engaging prior to two years ago and have done so since two years ago, but certainly we have not yet succeeded. Again, we continue, even as recently as a couple of months ago, to reach out.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
I'm moving on to recommendation 13: “That Fisheries and Oceans Canada provide Canadian fishers with equivalent harvest opportunities to any total allowable catches set by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) for 2023 since Atlantic mackerel is managed as one stock.”
When we did that study, we were told that Atlantic mackerel was managed as one stock. Now you're trying to say that there are two stocks. Why aren't Canadian fishers allowed to harvest when the Americans continue to harvest and can apparently take more of a harvest if Canadians aren't allowed access?
Senior Director, Resource Management - Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
First, I think it might be important to note that the U.S. stock assessment and the Canadian stock assessment, as my colleague outlined, are not equivalent. While the U.S. stock assessment focuses on the stock as a whole, both north and south, when it comes to fishing opportunity, we are really looking at the northern component of that. We then rely on the science provided to us by our DFO science colleagues in terms of accessing the northern contingent of mackerel. It wouldn't necessarily be appropriate to draw a parallel to harvesters who are fishing in a southern contingent.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
They really are being managed as two separate stocks, then, not as one stock, as the committee was led to believe in 2023.
Senior Director, Resource Management - Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
The way I view it is that it is a stock with different contingents that mix periodically throughout the year.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
They are being managed as two separate contingents of one stock, then. Is that correct?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Yes. From the science perspective, it is done separately.
In the U.S., they do the science advice and the management for the entire U.S. stock, which is primarily the southern contingent and a portion of the northern contingent.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Canadian harvesters continue to be restricted. Commercial harvesters continue to be under a moratorium, yet the U.S. contingent is able to harvest more because Canadian harvesters aren't allowed. Is that correct?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I will turn to my colleague Mr. Williams on management, but I just want to remind the committee that the increase that was seen in the latest science advice in the U.S. is primarily due to a growth of the southern contingent—the contingent that doesn't come into Canadian waters and is not fished in Canada.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
We're over time, so if you could, make it very brief. For anything else, writing in would be preferred.
Senior Director, Resource Management - Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
We have seen alignment since 2012 in terms of the TACs with the United States. Sometimes they misalign because, as Mr. Vigneault noted, they see growth in the southern contingent, but most recently in 2025, the U.S. commercial TAC and the Canadian TAC were very similar.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Arnold.
Next we'll go to Mr. Klassen for five minutes.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Madam Gaudet, science has been done on the Atlantic herring stocks, which will be released prior to the meeting of the herring advisory panel this spring. It appears as though the most recent data does not indicate any positive changes in the health of the species. Warming waters, access to food, and predation all impact the recovery of the stock.
Can you tell me about the impacts of climate change on the gulf and on the recovery of mackerel and herring?