Evidence of meeting #26 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was scientific.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Thank you, Mr. Gunn.
I'm looking at recommendation number five: “That Fisheries and Oceans Canada begin using additional stock assessment methods, including acoustic sounders, to assess Atlantic mackerel populations, as is the current practice in other North Atlantic nations and publicly release the conclusions of these assessments.”
Mr. Vigneault, I'm wondering if any part of that recommendation has been acted upon.
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
We have worked with other nations, like the United States, and with ICES, the organization in charge of the survey, to fine-tune and develop the methodology for our acoustic survey and egg survey.
I just want to point out that no other jurisdiction uses acoustic as their main end on this. They also use the egg and larvae survey, as we do in Canada. The difference is that some jurisdictions, such as in Europe, have enough capacity to use acoustic data to supplement the science. We are part of those discussions.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Are you aware that the herring acoustic assessment in 3L and 3K in Newfoundland waters had the seventh year of the seven-year acoustic program cancelled this past year? Are you aware of that?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Yes, we are aware of that. We are looking at other ways to do the science, because—
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
How much mackerel was observed acoustically in year six of that seven-year program?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
It's a fact that mackerel was observed through this acoustic survey, but to my earlier point to the committee, really, the key input into the stock assessment is the egg survey.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
The mackerel were observed acoustically. The recommendation in this study, which was released in 2023, was that acoustics be used in stock assessments. How much of the mackerel acoustics information that was gathered in the fall of 2024 was used to follow up on recommendations in this report, or was it not used at all?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
The science advice for the evaluation of the stock is to use the egg survey, because the acoustic survey is not currently possible. Because it's a very mobile species, as we know from the harvesters' observation, first off—
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
It's very mobile. It's everywhere. No doubt you follow social media. You've seen pictures and videos of schools of mackerel on top of the water, off the Bay of Fundy, the south shore of Nova Scotia, the eastern shore of Nova Scotia, the southern gulf, the Gaspé, the northern gulf and around all the shores of Newfoundland and Labrador. With these videos basically being taken within a month of each other, it can't be the same mackerel making that huge migration.
There's an immense amount of mackerel, based on simultaneous recordings of the surface action of these mackerel, wouldn't you say?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
There is mackerel, but as I mentioned earlier, we have done very dedicated, targeted work to look at where the core of the spawning occurs. It's still in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, where we sample.
We are collaborating with the ocean tracking network to use acoustic sensors. That's an ongoing project where we have put sensors into mackerel. To your point, that will enable us to track mackerel in Canada and along the U.S., and will guide us in future adjustments to the survey. The main point is that we have had a dedicated effort to look at where the egg spawning occurs, and we're still confident in our science.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Thank you.
I have a little time left. You described how the fish harvesters were collecting samples of mackerel for you. I understand that in the riding I come from, there was at least one person collecting samples with nets that had mesh of one size. How many different year classes can you catch in one-sized mesh?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
The focus of the sampling is to get the state of maturity, so we're looking at the larger fish, not taking samples to look at composition. It's mainly to get the size of the fish and account for—
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
That's the year class the minister said was missing. It's a missing year class.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Did you find any of those mackerel in that study?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
We're over the time, so I'll have to interrupt. Of course, if there's anything more that Mr. Vigneault would like to add to that, it can be done in writing. There will also be another round of questions for Mr. Small, and for others as well.
With that, we're going to Mr. Morrissey for five minutes.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you, Chair.
My question is for Mr. Vigneault.
Can you tell the committee what may be different in the assessment that's going to take place in 2026, from a methodology perspective, versus assessments you did earlier?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
There are a number of questions we've addressed through targeted research, which were embedded in the recommendations from the committee. Making sure that we account for the impact of climate change, we confirmed that the location of our survey is still valid with the ongoing change in the warming water—
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Do you have confidence in your site locations for the survey, even with the impact of climate change?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
We are fully confident. Furthermore, we hope to be able to add additional accuracy to the survey by taking into account the direct effect of temperature and the development of prey on the development of the larvae and young fish, because we think they're some of the minor drivers of rebuilding the stock.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
You answered a question earlier referencing the importance of the egg survey. Can you expand on that?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Because the fish move a lot during the summer, it will be very challenging to design an acoustic survey that captures the fish across the whole of Atlantic Canada.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
What does the egg survey tell you that a count of mature fish does not?
Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
The egg survey allows us to make sure that we count the entire population. That's the work I've described. We've confirmed that the core of the spawning still occurs in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, where we do our sampling. We take the egg data from the water sample, and from that, we extrapolate the future biomass of the population.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
I assume that's a proven scientific method that is used in more than just Canada in projecting the health of the stock.