Evidence of meeting #27 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fish.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
I would just ask you to submit in writing what you would consider a sufficient bait fishing period for the purposes of the committee's report.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much.
Next we're going to Mr. Small, and then to Mr. Hardy.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My question is for Mr. Robert.
Historically, beyond the last 30 years, the Gulf of St. Lawrence would completely freeze over every winter. Harp seals would reproduce there, typically, but that is not happening these days. Historically, mackerel reproduced in these same waters when water temperatures, at various times of the year, were very different than they are today.
Mr. Robert, you know the ecosystem has changed. You're a climate-change believer, and I believe it's changing as well. Fish depend on certain temperatures to thrive and reproduce.
Why is science still looking for mackerel larvae where they looked 30 years ago instead of trying to find out where the mackerel are reproducing today? Why is there not a concerted effort to find out where these mackerel are actually spawning? You know the harp seals aren't reproducing there. You know that, because you can fly over and see it. Can you square that circle for me, sir?
Professor, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
You're totally right that the system has changed quickly. However, one thing that doesn't change is that there is still winter. Basically, the system becomes cold in the winter, and then the temperature will reincrease. There are freezing temperatures at the surface of the gulf anyway. The temperature will reincrease in the spring, and the mackerel follows temperatures that are—
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
May I interrupt for one second? How deep is the water in the Northumberland Strait? Is it 15 or 20 fathoms? Do you think that water doesn't get cold right down to the bottom and warm up right down to the bottom with the season changing?
Professor, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
The mackerel don't spawn in the Northumberland Strait, and there's no station for—
Conservative
Professor, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
No, it's not there. It's up north in the southern gulf. There's no station for larvae in the Northumberland Strait. They're eggs, actually, not larvae. They're up north of the strait.
The thing is, when the water temperature increases, the mackerel come in and spawn. Where I totally agree with you is that the survey should be expanded at least every three or four years to look at adjacent areas. So far, the synthesis of data we have shows that there is no or not much spawning outside the southern gulf, but this should be monitored regularly, because with the changes, it's not impossible that the mackerel spawning area could change.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
I'm going to start with some questions for Mr. Robert.
Thank you for being with us.
This is one of my first times on this committee, and I notice that the science and the fishers who actually do the work don't seem to agree.
In my riding, Montmorency—Charlevoix, fishers regularly tell me that there's a huge abundance of striped bass, but officials tell them there aren't enough and they have to wait.
Do you see the same thing with other types of fisheries? Do you find that the science doesn't actually align with what the fishers are saying?
I have a second question about that.
Fishers are scientific too. Do you take their science into consideration, or is it not part of the equation because, to a certain extent, you think that what fishers say or think is just a feeling? Do you think your figures are accurate and their science is inaccurate?
How do you calculate that?
Professor, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
In the stock assessment process, calculations always include the commercial fishery data. This is actually the first data we look at in stock assessments, and the fishery—
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
I'll stop you for two seconds: If they don't have the right to fish or fishing is limited, their data is limited as well, so that skews your calculations, doesn't it?
Professor, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
Indeed, if fishing is shut down, it's more complex, because at that point, there are no data coming from the fishery. That's the situation right now—I agree with you—for stocks like spring herring or mackerel, where there is very little fishing. However, there's generally always at least a small fishing quota, and we're able to make calculations based on measures that come directly from fishers. I'm thinking of the catch effort, for example, that is to say the catch per unit of effort. These are indicators of how much effort fishers have had to expend, on average, to land a given quantity of fish.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
I agree with you. However, what they are telling us here is that, in a few minutes, they're able to reach your limits, and then they're no longer allowed to fish any other species; after that, they're told that there isn't enough stock and therefore that they can't fish any more. In a way, there's a disconnect. I think it's extremely important that one day we connect with fishers and listen to their science as well. It has to be part of the equation.
I have one last question for you, in closing. In your equations, do you take into account the survival of fishers and their businesses, by recognizing that if we restrict fishers, they'll stop operating, or do you focus on protecting fish without taking into account the protection of fishers?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Time is up.
If you could give a very short answer, I would appreciate it.
Professor, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
First of all, I'm not the one who manages this; it's Fisheries and Oceans Canada.
Second, there is still an advisory committee whose role is to reconcile scientific advice with the socio-economic reality of fishers. So there is still a process that allows the situation to be moderated to some extent.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Hardy.
We're going to finish with five minutes for Mr. Connors.
Liberal
Paul Connors Liberal Avalon, NL
Good day. My first question is for either Mark or Lucas. Both of you can answer it.
We all know the negative impact if we fish in the critical zone and what that would cause. What would be the negative impacts if we do not fish the quota of mackerel that needs to be fished? Would there be any negative impacts?
Commercial Mackerel Fisherman, As an Individual
One of the negative impacts is.... A large part of the mackerel's diet is lobster larvae. Earlier, there was talk about eggs and larvae. What Clifford was saying was that over in the strait, there are samples taken for the largest number of lobster larvae. We think that if sampling isn't done for mackerel, there should be. Since this is a large part of their diet, it makes sense for them to be there. I just wanted to add that.
The risks would be.... Especially if somebody else is going to be fishing the same stock and selling it back to us, it's not very beneficial to individual fishermen.
President, Prince County Fishermen's Association
I'll back up what Lucas just said 100%.
A while ago, something was mentioned about bass. We have the same issue with that. We're fighting science all the time with bass. That is also a predator to lobster. It may be more so; I'm not sure.
It is my feeling and the feeling of a lot of fishers that we need to balance the wheel. We have a lot of predators chasing our lobster. That's all we have left to fish. If you're taking out a lot of lobster at the larva stage—who the hell knows how many—and then you get the predation of bass later when the lobsters are bigger, you're putting extreme pressure on the only resource we have for income right now.
Liberal
Paul Connors Liberal Avalon, NL
Were you ever consulted on or asked about the research technique and what you should be doing? You mentioned so many nets, hooks and lines. Were you ever asked for input on that?
Commercial Mackerel Fisherman, As an Individual
I've been to quite a few meetings, and I've never been personally asked. Neither has our organization, as I recall. I know we've more or less been told what to do versus how to do it. We give lots of suggestions and lots of ideas after the fact, but they usually don't stray much at all.
President, Prince County Fishermen's Association
I can't add to anything about science for mackerel. I didn't do any, but I did it a couple of years ago for halibut, and it was the same thing. We were told where to go rather than to go where we thought the fish might be. They wanted us to tag some fish. Well, you can't tag fish you don't catch.
Let the fishermen help you make the decisions on where you should go if you're targeting something and want accurate data. Lucas is a good man to find some mackerel. Let him find the mackerel. Let him tell you how to catch it, because that's what he does. You don't catch mackerel.