Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 3rd, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

That is no point of order.

Go ahead, Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

We can't reference the steering committee. It's correct. That's what it was last time. I didn't say anything, but this is just to be aware.

My question is this. Is the department looking at quicker ways of independent review in cases where citizens have been denied or have complained about their services being denied to them? There have been high-profile cases of Canadians who have said they were denied their consular support abroad. They have had to go to the Federal Court. I am just wondering if there has been any internal review about how you deal with cases where people have said they were denied the services they thought they were entitled to. Is there any internal discussion or review on that?

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Obhrai, on a point of order.

They can say no, they can say yes, Mr. Obhrai. They can answer the question too.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Well, I have a question here where he is talking about the denial of consular services. He talks about high-profile cases, and in those cases, I want to make it very clear, so that you and I know, there were no consular services denied. There were other issues denied, but not consular services. He was talking about consular services. What we have here are consular people to talk about it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right. Continue on, Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I'll put a question and I'll stop there.

[An hon. member]

It's abusive.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Madam Thomsen, do you want to...?

Let's have some order here, all right?

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Order.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I'm asking a policy question, Chair. It's a policy question.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Yes.

[Lillian Thomsen]

My colleague will probably say a few words, too, but basically, as we've said, we are constantly looking for ways to improve the services. We do have, in particular, a very structured process of lessons learned for large events. Also, within the last two years, since the branch was established, we have biannual consular round tables, where we invite both stakeholders and non-governmental people for discussions under Chatham House Rules. We've only had two so far. The first one was a general one, largely with the industry. The second one focused on children's issues, abductions. The third one will be organized some time early next year on a theme. But this offers us a chance to reach out to stakeholders, to non-governmental organizations, to discuss, under Chatham House Rules, a specific nexus of issues and gather more information and perceptions and have a discussion, which can very well lead to follow-up.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thanks very much.

Ms. Brown and Mr. Abbott, on a split maybe.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

You answered some of the questions I had wanted to frame about the situation with children. I have a real concern when I see that child brides are taken out of Canada into other countries, and I just express that concern. I would like to know what rights the child has as a Canadian citizen. Are there consular services provided?

I want to ask another question, too.

Ms. Fortier, you talked in your presentation about some of the challenges our officials face. We've seen in some cases that media get involved and start to talk about this. You're constrained. I wonder if you could talk about some of those constraints that you face and how that media coverage impacts what your officials can do.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Abbott, do you want to quickly add to that?

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Yes.

I was interested in your testimony about the fact that you have managed to hit a point where there are some improvements. If we think about the 1,600 Canadians who received emergency assistance, that included the terrorist attacks in Mumbai and also the situation with the tsunami in 2004. Because this is public testimony, I don't want to ask any questions that in any way would compromise your situation, your ability to be able to serve Canadians. I know you are going to craft your answer with that in mind. I am just wondering if you could give the committee an idea of some of the specific steps you have made that have led to an improvement.

The reason for my question is that I think it leads to a better understanding on the part of travelling Canadians if they understand what you're doing and why you are doing it, so that they can respond appropriately, so that you can serve them better.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Abbott.

Ms. Fortier, on those two questions.

[Patricia Fortier]

Thank you very much.

In terms of children, yes, we've talked a lot about children, and it is a real focus. I think what you're alluding to are different cultural and religious views of what childhood is, and you made a reference to child brides. For example, there was a case that came out in the media recently about a young person, I think in the Punjab area of India, who actually asked for the assistance of the Canadian mission. She made her wishes known, and her return to Canada was facilitated successfully.

I think that goes to show that, to get to your next question, there's a minuscule number of cases in the media. We have 142,000 active cases. Of that, we have a smaller subset of about 5,000 or 6,000 that are distress cases. Of that, there's a smaller—yet smaller—subset of complex distress cases that we manage here in Ottawa. Of those, there are maybe a dozen that hit the media. So I think we have to always put things in perspective.

I know that one of my officers basically said to me, “Look, we know we can't even talk about our success cases because of the Privacy Act, and we understand that and we want to keep that information confidential, unless someone gives consent.” They say their reward is working every day of the week. They know they've made a positive contribution—they know it, we know it—and that's enough.

In terms of the attitude of our officers, they work within a constrained context, because basically we are at the point where, in terms of providing additional information, what we can say is that under the Privacy Act we cannot provide further information unless that person gives consent. This is in terms of any case that comes before us. We are taking real steps to make sure this information is guarded. We have firewalls between our case notes and we take precautions. We train people. We make sure that leakages don't happen, because these can be damaging, not only to the case but also to the person, and that's our particular concern.

One last point on the children's issue that I just wanted to make is that we also act as national coordinators of our missing children program, where we work very closely with the RCMP, CBSA, and the Department of Justice. So we're trying to be active on all fronts.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

Madam Bourgeois has a question as well, but we're going to go to Mr. McGuinty first for a very quick one.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Very quickly, can I just go to the part of the document that talks about the number of cases, “What Are Our Challenges?” I think that is part of Ms. Fortier's document. How many or what percentage of the cases, whether they are distress-related or complex distress cases, are health care related?

[Patricia Fortier]

I don't actually have the breakdown for that with me. I don't know if anybody has it.... We can get that to you if you would like.

Certainly in terms of health, this is where I made the point that we are working very closely with our provincial and municipal partners, because of course health is a provincial jurisdiction. I would also add—

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

But not overseas it's not.

[Patricia Fortier]

When they come back, because it's when they're coming back—