Evidence of meeting #3 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was million.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nadir Patel  Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Finance and Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Sabine Nolke  Director General, Non-Proliferation and Security Threat Reduction Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Charles Lamarre  Director General of Operations, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence
Christopher Ram  Legal Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

I just met with Valerie Amos, who returned from the Philippines. She's the UN's head of humanitarian response. Canada has a great reputation, as it's had for many years, with respect to humanitarianism. Our officials and the minister do a phenomenal job, and this is something that we've enjoyed a very solid reputation in for many years.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB

Does a request when you do an allocation like this go into those frozen funds you were talking about as this extra, because we had taken money out for Syria as well as the other efforts that we're actually taking? Does that go into a frozen pool when you request that? Or is that how that works?

4:20 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Finance and Operations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Nadir Patel

If I may, no, this is money that's not necessarily in our reference levels, but it's available to us for exactly that reason, so it doesn't create challenges for our other ongoing programs or an undue burden.

There could be some money available in our frozen allotments, but the allotments that are frozen vary year over year depending on what we can't touch. So in these supplementary estimates, for example, the full amount of the quick-release mechanism amount is in there because we didn't in fact have that in our reference levels.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Christian Paradis Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC

So it depends on the money that's on the ground, given what we're doing here in supplementary estimates. If the money wasn't there, nothing would be on the ground. So this is exactly the mechanism, but there are a lot of checks and balances.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you very much.

To our ministers, I want to thank you very much for taking the time to be here today. We're going to take a quick break for about five minutes just to get new witnesses in, and then we'll reconvene.

Thank you very much.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Perhaps we can get started on our second meeting here.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Friday, October 25, 2013, we are considering Bill C-6, An Act to implement the Convention on Cluster Munitions.

I want to welcome Minister Baird back to the table. As well, I want to welcome his department here. We have Sabine Nolke, the is director general of the non-proliferation and security threat reduction bureau. Welcome back to the committee.

From the Department of National Defence, we have Brigadier-General Charles Lamarre, the director general of operations of the joint staff. Welcome, sir.

We have from the Department of Justice, Christopher Ram, the legal counsel. Welcome back to you as well.

Minister Baird, I'll just turn the floor over to you. You have 10 minutes for your opening statement. I understand that you have a PowerPoint presentation to go through, and then we'll go back and forth with questions like we did in the last hour.

The floor is yours, sir.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to talk to you about Bill C-6 today. As you know, the Oslo convention prohibits the use of cluster munitions. Canada was one of the first countries to sign the convention in 2008. The convention also prohibits the development, production, acquisition, stockpiling, retention and transfer of cluster weapons.

Let me state clearly and unequivocally at the outset: the Government of Canada is committed to ridding the world of cluster munitions. Bill C-6 is an important step in that direction, but it is just the beginning of our work. Extending the relevant elements of the Oslo convention into domestic law will allow Canada to join the growing list of countries that share the same goal. It is worth spending a few minutes on making sure that we are very clear on what we are talking about and just what is at stake.

By definition, cluster bombs involve the scattering of many small submunitions or bomblets over a wide area from a singular container. I have some examples. These are obviously mock-ups, which I can show around the room on how problematic these are. The challenge is that when these bombs rain down on an area, they all don't explode. That is problematic after the cessation of hostilities.

I have some examples here. I will ask my office staff to pass them around so that members can get a clear idea of what we are talking about.

Extending the relevant elements of the Oslo convention into domestic law will allow Canada to join the growing number of countries in this regard. It is worth spending a few minutes on making sure we are very clear on what we're talking about and what's at stake. I have brought a few replicas with me, and we're passing them around the room.

Unexploded bomblets can pose a continuing threat to civilians long after the military action in which they are used. It is difficult to find these bomblets and it is dangerous to remove them. The unintended human toll exacted by these weapons is significant, and it is a human tragedy.

I urge committee members to look closely at these images and these replicas. There is little difference in the eyes of a child between these round bomblets and a schoolyard ball. A child sees what looks like a harmless ribbon, or a can to collect stones or to use in any other way that their young imaginations can think of.

Anyone who has ever met with victims of cluster bombs or who has heard their tragic stories cannot remain indifferent to their plight. I am sure that many of you around this table have had the opportunity to see how grave their situation is when you have travelled abroad.

My own experiences have deeply moved me. For instance, last month, I went to Laos in response to the country’s call for international assistance. Laos has to disarm a staggering 80 million unexploded bomblets that were dropped during the Vietnam War. The war ended four decades ago, but its deadly aftermath continues to be felt. Without our assistance, there would still be deadly consequences. Words are not enough to describe the extent of human costs caused by cluster bombs.

Cluster munitions like this have been used in nearly two dozen armed conflicts around the world since the Second World War. Tragically, they are still being used today. This map shows the status of stockpiles around the world.

Almost 90% of the victims of cluster munitions last year were killed or maimed in the war in Syria. Despite this, there are encouraging signs that global momentum is growing to stop their production, use, and transfer.

The Oslo convention, which was negotiated in 2008, reflects widespread concerns about the impact of these weapons and provides a framework for putting an end to them. Canada was among the 108 countries that proudly signed the convention in Oslo.

Enacting the bill before you would allow Canada to legally ratify the convention and to become a state party. I think we're clear about the reality of these weapons, and I hope I can say that all of us are committed to working towards a world where they will no longer exist.

Now let's look at the reality of making this happen. The fact is, not all states are ready to ratify the Oslo convention, as we are. Interestingly, Laos, where I visited, is one of the countries that is not ready, despite being one of the first countries to sign the landmines convention.

Among those parties is the United States, Canada's closest ally and the country with which we have the closest defence and security relationship of any two states on earth. That cooperation is of central importance to Canada's national security. In this uncertain world, to walk away from generations of a unique and privileged partnership would undermine the safety of Canadians within our own continent, and it would weaken our ability to contribute to peace and security internationally.

A lot has been said about article 21 of the convention. This article permits the armed forces of states parties to conduct operations or serve in exchanges with the armed forces of non-states parties.

Not having this would have significantly undermined Canada's ability to operate in coalitions and to maintain alliance relationships. Canada and a number of our close allies would not have been in a position to sign the convention. The United Kingdom and Australia, for example, have adopted similar measures in their legislation, and for similar reasons.

Of course, I wish that article 21 were not necessary, and maybe one day it will not be. I would prefer a world in which all of our allies had signed and ratified this convention, but the reality is that we're not there yet.

Canada's unique defence collaboration with the United States takes many forms: information sharing, logistics support, joint exercises, and combined operations, to name just a few. There is no doubt that it is absolutely crucial in meeting our broader defence needs.

This close cooperation could lead to members of our armed forces finding themselves in a situation whereby the provisions of Bill C-6 might apply to them while they're simply doing the job that they are trained to do and that we ask them to do. For example, Bill C-6, because of its scope, could apply to situations where Canadian Armed Forces members call in air support when under attack, or refuel an aircraft, or even just engage in military planning or the sharing of intelligence.

Remember: this is a criminal law bill. And it is a criminal law bill that is ambitious in the scope of what it will criminalize. Without these exceptions, which are permitted by the convention itself—and I want to underline this: which are permitted by the convention itself—our servicemen and -women could be held criminally responsible for doing the tough and often incredibly risky jobs they have volunteered for.

We do not want that, and I'm sure you don't want that either, so out of concern for our soldiers, I believe that this carefully balanced approach we have taken is something that we can all support.

Let me be clear that Bill C-6 enshrines the prohibitions outlined within the convention and the permitted exceptions to those prohibitions as set out in article 21—nothing more, nothing less.

Let me make something else perfectly clear. No Canadian soldier will use cluster munitions, ever. I want to repeat that: no Canadian soldier will use cluster munitions, ever. A directive from the Chief of the Defence Staff will see to that. When this bill is passed, we can task that directive.

Let's have a look at the reality of our defence relationship with the United States and the extent to which these exclusions might apply in practice.

There are over 67,000 members of Canada's regular forces and more than 28,000 in the reserves. Each day, hundreds of these members are taking advantage of our friendship with the United States through training, exchanges, or secondment within the U.S. military. These secondments improve the security and safety of all Canadians. Within these secondments, it would be a very, very rare scenario in which a Canadian Armed Forces member might—might—be directly implicated in the use of cluster munitions by U.S. forces.

For example, at this time, there are fewer than five Canadians in command positions in multilateral operations, fewer than five single members of the Canadian Forces. The slide here gives you a sense of what we're talking about; the little red Canadian stick man is actually disproportionately large, but we couldn't make it any smaller.

As you can see, the principal offences in the bill would affect only a tiny, tiny number of personnel and operations, but the bill also has to include aiding, abetting, counselling, and other forms of indirect involvement. It is these interpretations that could potentially extend to many more personnel if we don't protect them.

I am proud to be able to say that Canada has never produced cluster munitions and we've never used them in Canadian-led operations.

I can also say that even though we're not yet a state party to the convention, the Department of National Defence has already begun the process of destroying Canada's remaining cluster munitions.

These munitions were acquired many, many years ago, dating back to the seventies. Given that they're older, they're probably the ones we should be most worried about. Obviously the failure rate of the explosion of the droplets would be even higher than the ones they make today. These munitions were withdrawn from service several years ago. They are secure, and they will be destroyed with Canadian oversight as soon as possible.

So as weapons of war, cluster munitions in Canada are a thing of the past. It is actions like these that will make a real difference to the horrific impact of cluster munitions.

Our actions are by no means limited to this bill. During my visit to Laos, I announced a further donation by Canada of $1 million to help Laos deal with this horrendous remnant of a long-lost past war.

I want to put it in context. In Laos today there are 80 million of these droplets and land mines that are unexploded: 80 million. And Laos is a very geographically small country. The horrors of people scavenging for the metal to recycle and earn money, or children playing.... They had a mock-up at the Cope headquarters I visited of a typical home where many household lamps and other things used metal from these ordnances, most unexploded but some not. To think that these weapons were used in our lifetime is horrific.

Since 2006 Canada has contributed more than $200 million worldwide to help remove such deadly legacies of conflict, but we can do more and we must do more. Looking forward, I will be allocating up to $10 million in new support over the next 18 months.

The great benefit of this is that not only are we clearing areas, land masses, of these weapons, but when that land is cleared, people are safer and the land is now accessible for agricultural production. It's really a win-win proposition.

Canada will continue its proud tradition of support for demining efforts, victim assistance, and risk awareness programs. We will also be making contributions to support advocacy and outreach effort to non-state actors in support of the Oslo convention. Canada will continue to engage in outreach activities to promote the convention and its objectives at the diplomatic level.

We will make sure that Canada's voice is heard loudly and clearly on this issue, but we need to be a state party to have the credibility to do that. This bill is the right thing to do and the right way to do it. I call on the committee to work with us. Let us not allow our differences to stand in the way of advancing these important goals.

I want to say this: I have appreciated the opportunity to speak with a few government members and with critics from both the official opposition and the Liberal Party. I think we share the desire to tackle this problem. I look forward to your having the hearings, where you'll learn more about this. I will be ready, as always, to listen to the deliberations from all members and to your views on these issues.

I did want to come out and very clearly say two things. One, we take this issue incredibly seriously. Two, I have taken the time, that a number of you requested, to have quite a challenge function with members of the Canadian Forces to drill down on what is absolutely necessary for the article 21 exemption. I understand you'll be having some other witnesses, and I look forward to hearing a report on their testimony.

I'll be very pleased to take your questions and comments.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Minister.

We'll start with the opposition.

Mr. Dewar, seven minutes, please.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister. I personally believe you are committed to the cause, so to speak.

I do appreciate your recent visit to Laos, too. There's nothing like seeing the effects of these horrific munitions. I'm glad you took the time to do that. It's one thing to have numbers in front of you, and theories, but seeing is believing, as they say. In this case, it's seeing something that is absolutely abhorrent.

As you mentioned, and as the key visuals you have here show, these munitions can really be horrific, and the effects—I can't imagine them on my kids or anyone else's. Essentially they're dropping land mines from the sky, and in some ways they're more devastating land mines in the way they appear.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Much more....

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Let's talk about where we're at. I appreciated that recently you commented in the press about the bill. Your quote was that there's one part of the bill that's contentious. And we've talked about that part. You mentioned it's in article 21, but in the legislation, it's clause 11, and you gave us an overview of that.

We've had some documents here comparing the legislation of other countries. Is there another state party or signatory to the agreement, the treaty, that would allow one of its officers in a multilateral force—and your support staff here can probably help—to authorize or to use the cluster munitions by armed forces from another state?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

These aren't support staff; these are the lawyers.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Sorry, these are technical experts.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

The experts.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

I just want to know if there are other countries that have been signatories and implemented the legislation where one of their officers would be allowed, in a multilateral force, to authorize or be ordered to use cluster munitions. Can you identify any other countries?

November 19th, 2013 / 4:45 p.m.

Sabine Nolke Director General, Non-Proliferation and Security Threat Reduction Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

I may be a technical expert, but I'm certainly not claiming to be a technical expert in the legislation of other states. It is my understanding that no states would permit the use of cluster munitions, no.

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

That's certainly what the read and the analysis we've had says.

Just to follow-up, have Canadian Forces personnel serving as a part of a multilateral mission ever expressly requested the use of cluster munitions, ever been requested by—probably by the States, right?—another state to use cluster munitions?

4:50 p.m.

Brigadier-General Charles Lamarre Director General of Operations, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence

To the best of my knowledge, no, sir.

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

I get the two aspects to this because we know that in the case of the Ottawa treaty, the landmines treaty, there is a provision in the bill around interoperability so that we, in fact, can have Canadian forces with American forces under the treaty, wherein, it would be prohibited for Canadian forces to be commanded or in any way, shape, or form, to be asked to use landmines. The Ottawa landmines treaty is very different from what we're seeing here in clause 11.

My question is, why do we see the difference between what's in the Ottawa treaty, in the provisions of interoperability, versus what's in clause 11 of the bill, which essentially says that we can be in a situation where a Canadian Forces...? And I appreciate, Minister, your claims that no Canadian Forces member will ever be directed or will ever use cluster munitions. I take your word; I believe you're committed. But, of course, when we're talking about enaction of a treaty, and enacting a treaty, and putting into law, you're not going to be around forever, and I want guarantees—

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

You're working hard on that.

4:50 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

I am, every day, trust me. Count on it.

Seriously, we want to have law. And you know regulation versus law; I'll take law any day.

My question is this. We have it in the Ottawa protocol, in the Ottawa treaty on landmines, where we are very much guaranteed that Canadian forces will never be in a situation where they are asked to, or in theatre with those who are using landmines. You admit that's different here, and you gave us the math on it and gave a guarantee that this would never happen. That's the essence of this. What we're looking for is an opening for an amendment on that piece. Then I think you'd find unanimity.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

I think we're just as prepared to consider a thoughtful amendment as I hope you would be—

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Absolutely.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

John Baird Conservative Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

—to our position.

I appreciate your bringing up the case of the Ottawa landmine treaty and the convention there. I'll ask Christopher Ram to comment in a moment, if I could. I'm not aware, today, that landmines are being laid. As I understand, even the United States was prepared to sign the landmine treaty if we excluded the demilitarized zone in Korea. Having said that, regrettably, a number of countries continue to use cluster munitions. The United States, even in recent years—it stunned me—have used them in conflicts like Iraq and Afghanistan. Obviously, it's a given that cluster munitions are still used.