Government Operations Committee on Nov. 5th, 2009

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

There is also a big challenge in recruitment. Of course, there is a lot of focus on young people, but are we also giving opportunities to people betwen the ages of 40 and 55? Are we being impartial and enabling them to join the Public Service? Some people might be able to work for the government and contribute to society for another couple of decades yet.

[Maria Barrados]

We realized that in the Public Service, we needed not only recruits fresh out of school, but also people who have more experience. However, the average age of people entering the Public Service as permanent employees is 35 to 36. That means there are some people with a lot of experience and others who are young.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lotbinière—Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Parliamentary Secretary Gourde.

My questions, too, will be about recruitment.

Before I begin, I would like to say to you, Ms. Barrados and the witnesses who are here with us, that I am new to this committee; I am only here for a while. Nevertheless, I extend my greetings and welcome you.

I normally sit on the Standing Committee on Official Languages. The last study dealt specifically with recruitment and the significant needs of the federal public service, particularly in terms of bilingual employees. In fact, that analogy that was used was that we needed as many employees as it takes to run a GM plant for a year. Mr. Gravelle took part in many of the proceedings on that issue. I think the need is several thousand employees each year. We know that young people are entering the Public Service, where there are bilingual jobs, but universities have not always prepared them well.

I would like to know if you have been proactive in this regard with post-secondary institutions considering the fact that you are Canada's biggest employer.

[Maria Barrados]

My colleague Mr Lemaire has experience working with universities. Perhaps he can answer your question.

[Donald Lemaire, Senior Vice-President, Policy Branch, Public Service Commission of Canada]

We actually did that with the people at Sainte-Anne University. We worked with them and tested students in order to show them the level of bilingualism required by the federal public service. Following that pilot project, the School of Public Service signed an agreement with 11 universities to adopt the same type of approach and make students aware of bilingualism. There were all sorts of myths and misconceptions.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Is Sainte-Anne Univesity bilingual or Anglophone.

[Donald Lemaire]

There was a group of French teachers who trained people in their second language.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Are the 11 universities you have signed agreements with big universities? Is one of them Toronto, for example?

[Donald Lemaire]

I would have to check with the School of Public Service. I do not have the list of universities. I can tell you, however, that the same type of agreement has been signed with Glendon College in southern Ontario.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Between you and me, you realized that you were not necessarily being proactive and that after hiring unilingual staff, once those people were employed in the federal public service, you had to spend money so they would meet the standards. The cost therefore doubled. When you hire an engineer, he has his professional engineering certificate and the requisite skills. That is surely something you surely have to think long and hard about.

I have another question. In your report, you calculated, for example, the ratio of public servants in the regions versus those in the headquarters area? You also calculated the number of federal employees who are assigned to front-line services compared with the number assigned to management and internal management positions.

There is a desire for efficiency and review in our institutions. I find that there is often a need for front-line services, but sometimes there is a long process to get there. Has that been considered at all?

[Maria Barrados]

We conducted an analysis to find out where we should go to look for people and where we should be recruiting. Overall, 40% of public servants are in the National Capital Region and 60% are elsewhere. The staffing ratio is almost the same: 40% versus 60%.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

So that means that in the end, the farther we go, the more people there will be on the Hill and the fewer people there will be in the regions, all the ratios staying the same.

[Maria Barrados]

The issue for us is where the positions and departments are located.

This is how it works. It's up to the government, or the employer, and the department to decide where the work goes. The employer determines the type and level of work. We are the ones in charge of the process.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

You are in charge of staffing, but in the end, it is the department that determines where the position is, that is, whether or not it is in a region.

I worked in a region, in Quebec City, for the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs. We were in main offices. It was something I always wondered about. I saw a difference between the approach used for an office in a region and the approach used for an office on the Hill. The approach is different in terms of front-line services.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Leave some time so that she can answer, please.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Thank you. I think that's it, the issue.

Has any thought been given to the evaluation of front-line services?

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

You have time for a very brief response.

[Maria Barrados]

I am sure that someone in government is doing it, but it is not us.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Lévis—Bellechasse, QC]

Okay, thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Yasmin Ratansi]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Mr. Gravelle for eight minutes.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you.

Welcome.

In your report, under “Stakeholder Communication” on page 147, you recommend that to improve communications between the PSC and public service bargaining agents, “the PSC will meet with union leaders on a biannual basis”.

What unions have you approached about these future meetings? What has been the reception of your request?

[Maria Barrados]

Your question is posed in the context of a review of our oversight activities. That report did consult with union leaders on their views of how we were doing our work because they represent a large part of the public service. In the view of the union leaders, we were trying hard but weren't tough enough. I'm summarizing, but that was basically the view they represented.

We have commenced this process of dialoguing with them. I spent a fair bit time with Michèle Demers before she passed away, and I've had a meeting with John Gordon. I have a meeting with him next week on this very thing.