Government Operations Committee on Dec. 13th, 2011

[Mario Dion]

I reported, as a matter of fact, on June 14, when the first annual report was tabled. The act says that we have, essentially, 90 days after March 31, if Parliament is sitting, to table our annual report. The act also provides the commissioner with the authority to table special reports at any time on any matter, if there is something of significant importance that cannot wait for the annual report. It has never been used, but it's a tool that could be used if the situation warrants it.

I hope that, if my appointment is approved, I will be called periodically to appear before this committee and the Senate committee, as part of our education exercise as well. It's a sure way to keep one honest, and I think it's a valuable tool that should be used.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Following up on my colleague's question about the additional six, or potentially 23, investigations you're embarking on, could there be an additional or supplemental report, then?

[Mario Dion]

It's possible, yes, depending on the timing. Because if we can deal with it in the next annual report, then there is no problem.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Could you refresh for the committee again your overall budget and your employee structure?

[Mario Dion]

The office has had consistently since its inception $5.3 billion. They were planning a staff complement of up to 45, according to some documents tabled in the past. We currently have a staff strength of 35, with two vacant positions to be staffed, for a total of 37.

As for how it's organized, we currently devote eight FTEs to what I call corporate services--i.e., infrastructure, IT, IM, HR, finance, and so on and so forth. The rest of the FTEs--or full-time equivalents--are used for core business, for the program itself. The operations unit itself has a current complement of 16 people, and a planned complement of 18, who do nothing but handle cases at the analysis stage, the investigation stage, and the report stage. I hope this clarifies it for you.

Next year we will make a contribution to the government's effort to eliminate the deficit. I soon will be writing to the Speaker of the House about this if my appointment is approved. Our budget will therefore be reduced by close to $300,000 in 2014-15.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

That's excellent.

I think I have about 30 seconds, so I have one last question to ensure confidence. Because of the sensitivity of information and confidentiality, if one of your employees breaches that information, what are the consequences of that breach?

[Mario Dion]

It's a statutory obligation under section 44 and it could constitute a reason for discipline, I would think, without any hesitation. The emphasis we place on confidentiality is very high. We have an alarm system. We have security procedures. Every evening, every file is locked up. There are spot checks to make sure they are locked up properly in an approved device. We take this very seriously, because it's another pillar of creating the confidence we're talking about.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

Ron, you're over your time now. Thank you very much.

For the Liberal Party, John McCallum. Five minutes, John.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you.

I'd like to pursue a little more the discussion we were having about the Democracy Watch and FAIR view not to appoint a public servant, reinforced by our chair's view and the letter he read, versus what was said about the other side of the coin--that public servants have experience, they understand how the system works, the culture, etc.

Now, you had a lot of turnover of employees, right? One possible compromise would be to hire a number of senior people in your group from outside the public service. Then you would have both points of view within the organization. Do you think there is merit in that? Were any of the people that you did hire...did they all come from the public service, or were some from outside?

[Mario Dion]

Since I've been there, we've conducted a number of staffing actions. Many of the competitions, including the competition for the deputy commissioner and the competition for the executive director, who is in charge of anything that is not core business, were open to members of the public. We had people from outside the public service who applied and were duly considered but did not become the final qualified candidate.

So efforts have been made to do that. I strongly believe that we should do that. In fact, an offer also was made to NGOs to send a representative for selection boards for the deputy commissioner position. I believe there should be outside involvement in selecting key people who work in the office, but you cannot essentially create.... Some people have to apply and some people must have some qualifications in order to join the office.

I did not do a complete review of the 35, but I believe we do have pretty young people who come from outside the public service, because it's either their first or their second job. But in the senior ranks, we don't have people who have spent most of their careers outside.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Well—

[Mario Dion]

But I believe it would be a way to keep a balance.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Yes.

Another thing I think you mentioned—perhaps it was in your Senate testimony--was that you reached out to Democracy Watch and FAIR and you set up regular meetings.

[Mario Dion]

Yes.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

That would be another way to bring in outside viewpoints, non-public-service.

[Mario Dion]

In fact, shortly after my appointment, back in January or February, I had several meetings with David Hutton and a few meetings with Allan Cutler, separately, to get to know them, because I did not know them. I came from another sphere, if you wish.

They agreed when I suggested the creation of a permanent, multipartite advisory committee of which they would be a part. They attended the first three meetings, which in my view were very successful, to foster a dialogue among all those involved in implementing the act, including the Treasury Board, the tribunal—not the judges, but the executive director of the tribunal--APEX, which represents EX managers within the public service, and so on and so forth.

I have done that and I intend to continue that. It was my idea to--

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I guess that's a good idea, but it has its limitations, because presumably those outside people certainly can't get any information on the specific cases before you.

[Mario Dion]

That's right. We have section 44, which constitutes an absolute bar on any discussion of any case.

[The Chair, NDP, Pat Martin]

You have one minute.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Okay.

On a different subject, I think you said you had three cases before tribunals.

[Mario Dion]

We have two.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

And you have zero before Parliament.

[Mario Dion]

That's right.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

I'm not quite sure how that works. If a certain decision is made by a tribunal, does that mean it then goes to Parliament?

[Mario Dion]

No. There are two streams. Under our act, somebody can come to us to disclose a wrongdoing. We investigate and we come to a conclusion. If the accusation of wrongdoing is found to be well-founded—and wrongdoing is essentially a contravention of a statute, gross mismanagement, or misuse of public funds--and we conclude that wrongdoing has taken place, this act gives us the teeth to make public a report to Parliament describing the wrongdoing, the fact that it happened, and our recommendations to avoid the reoccurence of the same situation.

The second type concerns complaints of reprisals. Somebody says, “Because I made a protected disclosure, bad things have happened to me in my employment. My job has been terminated. I've been demoted. I don't do overtime any more”, and so on. If we find this complaint is well-founded, our mechanism is to refer it to a tribunal, to judges who have the authority to impose sanctions.