Evidence of meeting #74 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was million.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bill Matthews  Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Christine Walker  Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Services, Treasury Board Secretariat
Sally Thornton  Executive Director, Expenditure Strategies and Estimates, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Alex Lakroni  Chief Financial Officer, Finance Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
John McBain  Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Brigitte Fortin  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Accounting, Banking and Compensation Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

11 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

We'll call the meeting to order. We have only one hour to spend with our guests, so we'd like to make the best possible use of it.

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates as we deal with the supplementary (C) estimates as they pertain to the Treasury Board Secretariat.

We're pleased to welcome some regular and frequent guests back to the committee from the secretariat to explain the supplementary (C)s.

I've spoken to Bill Matthews, who is heading the delegation, and he says he has some introductory remarks that might help us focus where the bulk of the costing and spending is.

I'd like to allow Mr. Matthews to take the floor first and tell us what he'd like to tell us about the supplementary (C)s. Then we'll try to maximize the questioning after that, if that's okay with everybody.

Mr. Matthews, the floor is yours.

11 a.m.

Bill Matthews Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm delighted to be here this morning to assist the committee in its study of supplementary estimates (C) for 2012-13.

Given that the document was just tabled yesterday, there is a presentation, which we thought we would go through very quickly, to help focus committee members in getting ready for their study.

I will talk about government expenditures in general, and then I'll hand the floor over to the Chief Financial Officer of the Treasury Board Secretariat to speak to the secretariat's expenditures.

If that's agreeable, we will go through the slide presentation.

To begin, Mr. Chairman, given that there is a bit of a time crunch, I would like to start on slide 4. The first three slides simply give some background on what is in this deck and how the estimates are organized. I will move right to slide 4 and get started there.

11 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Okay. Thank you.

11 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

What we have on slide 4 is what's in supplementary estimates (C) itself, voted items of $1.5 billion. We have a decrease of $0.1 billion for a total of $1.4 billion.

I will take this opportunity to remind members of the distinction between budgetary and non-budgetary items. Budgetary items are items that affect the bottom line of the government. Non-budgetary items are things like loans, investment advances, where if all goes as planned, we would not end up incurring expense. We can talk later about Canada student loan writeoffs if that's of use, because that's a really good example on this front.

Statutory items in supplementary estimates (C) are not voted on by parliamentarians. They are here for information. We have a variety of changes in the estimates on that front, but it's worth paying a bit of attention to as we go through this deck.

Slide 5 is if you're curious about what the estimates total looks like. I always warn people about comparing supplementary estimates (A) for one year versus (A) for the previous year, because there are timing differences, but when you get to the end of the cycle, it is worth the time to step back and see what the picture looks like this year versus last year. If you compare 2012-13 versus 2011-12, you will see that we have voted $98.6 billion in 2012-13 versus $99.9 billion in the previous year. On the statutory front, you'll see a slight increase. We are at $160.4 billion versus $159.7 billion the previous year. Overall for the total, $259 billion in authorities including supplementary estimates (C) versus $259.6 billion in the previous year. It's worth understanding the difference between voted and statutory here.

Where I would spend most of my time is on slide 6, Mr. Chair. Those are the major voted items you'll see in these supplementary estimates (C). As I mentioned, on the previous slide in the $1.5 billion in voted, there are some really major items that make up that amount. I'll just walk through those one by one, if that's of use to the committee.

Under National Defence, for the Canadian Forces service income security insurance plan, there's the amount of $726 million. That's a payment that's going to Manulife as a result of an agreed-upon settlement. There was an agreement to pay back some amounts where we had offset veterans disability amounts versus the Canadian Forces disability amount. They're now being kept whole so that agreement's been reached. Manulife had advanced the payments to the members receiving them so we're now topping up Manulife for that amount.

There is the amount of $438 million, again for National Defence. There are two items in there. You'll be familiar with part of it. We have spoken to this committee before about the elimination of severance benefits as part of the collective agreements. National Defence is part of that process as well, so in that $438 million there is roughly $200 million for severance. The balance of that relates to the Canada First defence strategy.

There is the HRSDC writeoff of unrecoverable student loans of $231 million. This is a great example of budgetary versus non-budgetary. When these loans are issued, they are non-budgetary because we expect to recover them. When we get to a point where we are writing them off because the six-year statute of limitations has expired, they now become budgetary because we're taking an expense for the writeoff of the amounts. There's $231 million for that. I'm happy to speak more about that if it's of interest.

There's the amount of $144 million, for National Defence again, for the training mission. It relates to a NATO mission. It's for training for both the Afghan National Army as well as the police force.

On Foreign Affairs, the amount of $108 million for the London high commission is an interesting one. In that case, they're co-locating or combining two buildings into one. Currently we occupy two buildings in London. Some space adjacent to one of the buildings is being bought so they can be housed in one location. This amount is really flow-through financing. When we sell the second building, we will recover this amount, but we're using this amount to buy the adjacent property and get going on the consolidation there.

On the Copenhagen Accord, I think you may have seen before that there are some amounts for CIDA, Environment Canada, and Parks Canada related to that agreement.

On CIDA, I should mention the $100 million for child protection, maternal and newborn health. This is not new money. CIDA is moving their funding mechanism. We're going from a contribution to a grant, but because of that we have to go to Parliament to get approval to increase the grant ceiling. So it's not new money here, but we're moving from contribution to grant.

Last, we have Public Works for $85 million. I understand that Public Works is scheduled to appear shortly after us, so I'll let them explain their bit here.

On the statutory front, slide 7, again just for information purposes, Human Resources enhanced employment insurance benefits relates to budget 2009. The intent there is to hold the EI account harmless for the additional benefits. Initially $2.9 billion was set aside, if I recall, so this is to top that up to cover off all the expenses there.

For Human Resources again, on guaranteed income supplements, we're increasing the forecast by $143 million. You can split that into two things. One is an increase in the number of recipients by about 13,000. The balance of $74 million relates to an increase in the actual benefit payment per recipient. So there are two pieces to that.

On the disability savings grant program, again from Human Resources, we have $115 million. The issue there is they've changed the criteria to allow carry back. It's much like you would have if you think about income tax and the carry forward, carry back of losses. They basically expanded it to allow carry back, which is going to increase the amounts paid out. There's $115 million there.

For Human Resources again, on old age security, it's $105 million. You can split that again between an increase in the number of recipients by about 6,000 as well as an increase in the actual entitlement.

Finally, there's a decrease in the forecast related to unmatured debt—so that's interest—of $762 million, which relates to interest rates.

On slide 8, we have the horizontal items. Just to remind you, the horizontal items are items where we have more than one department receiving funding. We dedicate some paper up front in the supplementary estimates (C) document to go through horizontal items so members and parliamentarians can see which departments are receiving money. We do have the list of those who are receiving funds through supplementary estimates (C).

The Copenhagen Accord I've already touched on.

On the international crisis response for $60 million, that's a change in the way we're actually funding that. That is supposed to be and is always intended for things like earthquakes and food emergencies around the world. With the process we had in place before, it was very time consuming for CIDA and other organizations to get their money. Given that it's a crisis response, we thought it would be better to actually put the money in the reference levels. In case there is a crisis, the department can actually take whatever required action they need to on a faster basis.

The other ones I'll flag for you here.

The modernization of the pay administration is for Public Works, in the amount of $26 million. They, as well as Shared Services Canada, are coming up next so you may want to have questions about that.

Finally, government advertising programs, I know, get some attention so I'll mention it. There's $1 million in here for advertising. That's totally related to Canada Revenue Agency around advertising for tax credits, deductions, and rules.

On slide 9, I did want to talk again about the budget 2012 spending review. We have spoken about this before, but you will see in the supplementary estimates (C) a line that says, “Less: Funds available within the Vote”. You may recall last year when we tabled the main estimates it was in advance of the budget and we did not have the budget 2012 reductions. As departments come in for new spending, if we have moneys that were in their main estimates that they no longer have access to spend, we do a netting of the two. That's happened again here, and we've highlighted for you where we've netted off those amounts. In supplementary estimates (B) we had a netting of $483 million. In supplementary estimates (C) we have another $58 million. If a department does not come in for additional funds, we simply freeze the money centrally and put the controls in place that way. Basically, there's no point giving a department access to new money if they can't spend what they already have, and that's what this netting is all about.

Finally, on slide 10, before I pass it over to the chief financial officer for Treasury Board Secretariat, there is $1.5 billion in voted expenditures. I did highlight some of the major changes to statutory forecasts for you. Not all departments are in here. We have 49 departments and agencies here. Again, if you're not looking for additional funds, there's no need to be in this document, so there are only 49 departments in here. If you're looking for a certain department and you don't see it, it's because they've not come forward with additional spending requirements.

As a final reminder, at the end of the supplementary estimates (C) is the draft of the appropriation bill. It is the appropriation bill itself that Parliament approves. These estimates documents are simply to help support your study of that, but you should spend some time looking at the appropriation bill itself because that is what Parliament approves.

With that, I'll turn it over to Christine Walker to speak quickly about Treasury Board Secretariat itself.

11:10 a.m.

Christine Walker Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Services, Treasury Board Secretariat

Good morning, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to talk a little bit about the supplementary estimates (C) for the Treasury Board Secretariat as a department.

There are only two items in supplementary estimates (C). The first one is a very small item for $75,000, and it's a transfer from Industry Canada to the Treasury Board Secretariat for the National Managers' Community. This community was established in 2000 and it's to help managers continue to be effective leaders as the times change. Funding for that program is actually received from 36 different departments, totalling $2.7 million over the year.

The second item we have is the approval of the vote 15 compensation adjustments, for $10.7 million. This is money that is actually within vote 15 and will be allocated to other departments. This is really the adjustments due to the extension of two types of allowances: transitional allowances and terminable allowances. This is not base pay; these are time limited. This is in complete compliance with the budget. Once again, these are not salary increases. This affected such groups as nurses, actuarial scientists, and financial resources within the government. These were very technical resources that received these allowances.

Slide 12 shows what the total estimates of the Treasury Board Secretariat are to date. The Treasury Board Secretariat will end at $252 million for vote 1, and the compensation adjustments will be $10.7 million.

With that I will end my remarks.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Thank you very much, Ms. Walker.

Mr. Matthews, does that conclude your introduction?

11:10 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

It does.

I will make a final request, Mr. Chair. If members have questions that relate to a particular page in the supplementary estimates document, if they could be kind enough to let us know which page, that would help us.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Fair enough. Thank you very much. I think this does help to focus what little time we have, although I know Mr. Ravignat wants to make a point.

Were you raising a point of order regarding the timeliness?

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

I don't know if I would call it a point of order, but certainly if you all recall, here in the committee we asked in our recommendations on the estimates process that we be given sufficient time to study the estimates.

Look at this. We got this at 3 p.m. yesterday, roughly, and we're meeting now at 11 a.m. to discuss all of this. This is the committee that's responsible for passing the estimates. Is that the government's dedication to transparency? Was there no consideration for the recommendation brought by this committee to have more time?

It comes to a point where it becomes a question of privilege. Parliamentarians have to have the time to do their work in a way that is thorough and well done. We can only do that if we have access to the information we need.

It's unbelievable that we got this less than 24 hours before this meeting. I think that point needs to be made. There are ways of adjusting the schedule. It should have been done, and I would expect the government would be more dedicated to proper due process.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Okay, you've made your point.

Mr. Braid, are you waiting to speak to the same point?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

I want to speak on the same point, yes.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

I'm trying to decide if it's a point of order or not. There was no real point you're making in terms of order other than an introductory comment. Do you want to spend some time on this?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Just for the record, I want to clarify that at the subcommittee yesterday the government side also agreed that we would review the estimates on Thursday. This was a last-minute change as a result of the availability of departmental officials. Your comments are off base.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

I think we should be careful what we talk about from an in camera planning meeting.

But I can say from the chair's point of view that I met yesterday with the secretary of the Treasury Board, who told me quite plainly that these very people who we need today to talk about the supplementary (C)s are never available on Thursdays. That's the day of the one meeting where they have to be briefing cabinet, etc. Therefore the original plan to have them come on Thursday wasn't possible, so we went ahead rather than waste the meeting even with full knowledge that it's not an adequate period of time to do justice to these complicated estimates and the full knowledge that a recommendation from our committee report was that we would try to structure things in the future to give MPs more time.

It didn't happen this time and your point is well taken, but I don't know if there's any real point in debating it much further.

Mathieu, please be brief, and then we'll go on to questions.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

With all due respect to my colleagues and the chair, this touches on relationships between parliamentarians and the staff and our relationship to the departments and ministries that we're ultimately responsible for. That a particular person is not available for a meeting just doesn't cut it. As far as I'm concerned, it's up to the public service to adapt. It's up to Treasury Board to adapt in order to give us the time to properly study these estimates because, ultimately, we're the ones responsible and this committee is responsible.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Dan, keep it brief because we're losing time that we can question the witnesses.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

That's a fair concern, but again there are many different things.… One of the reasons an opposition member chairs this committee is to deal with these things as fairly as possible.

Mr. Chair, it's not a job I would personally like to have.

I would suggest, though, that if you do have concerns about the scheduling to express them discreetly to the chair on your own time, or perhaps to your member on the steering committee. I think all of us here want to work together and make sure parliamentarians have access. If you look at the report that you guys put out earlier, obviously the government is reviewing that. It sounds to me that this committee, quite frankly, is very committed towards making the estimates process better.

I would ask to see a little bit more even-handedness on the comments like that, particularly since we are supposed to be working together to make sure that Parliament has full scrutiny over these documents.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Let's hear from the Liberals, and then let's close it off and go to questioning.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Notwithstanding that we've not had these estimates for very long, some of us, including me, have spent some time studying them and do have questions. So I would propose we go immediately to questions.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP Pat Martin

Fair enough. That seems to be a general consensus.

The first question will be for the NDP, Mathieu Ravignat.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Following up on my colleague's comments, I indeed have a number of questions. Regardless of my opinion on the length of time we had to study, I think any reasonable person would recognize it was way too short, particularly considering the recommendations by this committee to have a longer time to study the estimates.

My first question is on advertisement. It's just a matter of confirming something for me.

I'm looking at page 17 of the supplementary estimates. In your presentation, you said that the $1 million was completely related to Revenue Canada and the tax process. Is the figure 56,600, which I believe is the cumulative total, also included in that $1 million?

11:20 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

If you look at the chart on page 17—Sally do you mind finding the reference in French for me?

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

I believe it's page 17 in the French version as well.

11:20 a.m.

Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat

Bill Matthews

Same thing? Thank you very much.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Mathieu Ravignat NDP Pontiac, QC

My pleasure.