Evidence of meeting #171 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was military.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
5:10 p.m.
As an Individual
I was connected with Veterans Affairs through the veterans in the public service unit. They were the ones that eventually reviewed my submission and told me how I was going to improve it next time. It wasn't the Public Service Commission, it wasn't DND, and it wasn't the hiring managers. It was the VPSU.
5:10 p.m.
As an Individual
Do you mean the guy who left and didn't shake any of our hands or want to know who we were? I'm sorry, but that answers it right there.
We're thrown to the wolves. We have degrees, diplomas, professional accreditations. Quite frankly, trying to get us into the civil service, it seems that until there's some system of accountability and some—pardon my language, I'm trying to be respectful—hammer of the gods to say, “Look, you're not hitting any of your targets. You're not doing anything right. Start all over again”....
5:10 p.m.
As an Individual
Right now, the onus is on the members to find the help they need and to get their applications through. If you can't advocate for yourself, you'll fail in this system. There is no way to do it. If I weren't adamant and kept turning over every rock, I would not succeed.
5:15 p.m.
Audit Officer, Office of the Assistant Deputy Minister, Review Services, As an Individual
On top of that too, if it's clear somebody doesn't want me as a member of their team and I rattle the ombudsman's cage to get that position, then right there my job is in jeopardy. I'm on a one-year probation. If I was two minutes late, see you later.
5:15 p.m.
As an Individual
I got the same advice from the Public Service Commission. Why would you want a job where they don't want you?
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
All right.
I will cede the rest of my time to Randy, who has a burning question.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
I'm going to test an idea on you. I know this is about jobs, but there's something else we want to do. We want to open up federal procurement to diversity groups. The U.S. has done this for 12 years for persons of colour, women, indigenous, vets, LGBTQ2 and persons with disabilities. If we could certify that there were veteran-owned businesses, and they would automatically get a piece of all the federal public services and the construction and the services that went out, would you like that idea? If so, let me know, and when you're wrapping up, tell me where you think the bias is coming from against vets, because I don't stand for it.
Go ahead, Mr. Hicks. You didn't get air time last time.
5:15 p.m.
As an Individual
All right. Fair enough.
I think one thing you did was to sort touch on the fact that almost all of those employment equity groups—
5:15 p.m.
As an Individual
Four are protected right now. We're not. I'll go to the meat of it and say, yes, that would be a fantastic idea for veterans to have a cut. The problem is, take a look at the four of us here. We're almost the demographic of the Canadian Armed Forces. We're four white males and I imagine we're straight. We don't fit into an environment where the hiring practices are all based on where you fit according to intersectionality and those kinds of rules.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Great.
Thanks again, gentlemen. I think we all share your frustration over this. To go back to someone's comment earlier, when I was coming back from my break in between witnesses, they would not talk to me either as they passed through, which says a lot. We seem to be tilting windmills against the various bureaucratic levels again and again.
Mr. Drouin, one of my colleagues, talked about a quota system. What would you think of that? How would you apply it? I think we need to do something, but I think it would be kind of difficult to do that. Do you have any thoughts?
5:15 p.m.
As an Individual
If you guys don't mind, I'll jump on this because I prepared a little bit for it.
When the EEA was implemented, it was because they recognized that certain groups were being marginalized and excluded from public life, from commercial life. That was way back when. That was women and that was visible minorities, and it sort of grew.
The simple fact is that we're hurting. We're a talented pool of people and we're being excluded from jobs when, as citizens, as taxpayers and as voters, we should have every single right to that kind of privilege. If we have to go to a quota system, which is originally what the act did, and do that for a little while, I would be happy to say turn off the tap once we build up to a critical mass and we don't need it anymore. We started with that to make sure everybody had a shot at the civil service. Having been in the private sector, it's feast or famine. There's a reason why people say that the civil service is like winning the lottery.
Perhaps we have to go to a quota system, at least until we can prove ourselves. As I said, you give us the chance—you bet on us—and we'll produce for you.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
That's what the law is supposed to be.
To Mr. Boissonnault's comment about procurement, we were studying it and we heard very clearly from the bureaucrats that, no, we're following the law. Then we'd have all these identified groups saying, no, you're not, so it's not just for hiring vets.
Our first set of witnesses talked about the U.S. system where they have the equivalency of skills. We've heard from previous vets about BCIT in Burnaby, which has a similar set-up. To me, just looking at it, the biggest first step we could take would be to have something like that, to have the skill equivalency, so that they cannot shoot you down for having crisis communications and not emergency communications. Is that a fair idea? Are we on the right track to maybe focus on that as a priority?
5:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes. I ran into that with some of my applications as well. I know that in the Coast Guard there was a requirement for marine radio communications. I had advanced comms in the military but that didn't really apply.
For most of the credentials that I ran into, they were on technical jobs. What I raised with the hiring manager is that if these are simple courses, why can't I do the course once I'm in the job? How do the people in the public service get these credentials in the first place? There's no school out there that gives you a radio operator certificate or a rigid hull inflatable operations course, right? Just train me to do it and I'll do it.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
What do you think the best complaint mechanism would be when you're running into these guys? I don't want to use the word “discrimination”, but the law says you have priority and you should be hired and they're pulling stuff like they're doing to, say, Mr. Northey. What do you think would be the best complaint mechanism? Obviously, going to PSC doesn't work, and the veterans ombudsman doesn't seem to be the way. Do you have any thoughts on that?
5:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Honestly, I think the PSC needs to have more teeth to mandate the hiring managers to have flexibility when converting these skills. It should be up to the hiring manager's discretion to say, “Yes, you know what? We'll find a place. We'll find a system that works for this, because you're close enough. You're never going to be perfect on all these credentials, but we'll make it work. We'll be adaptable.” That's what's missing.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Tom Lukiwski
Thank you so much.
Our final five-minute intervention will come from Monsieur Drouin.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I will be sharing one minute with Mr. Peterson because I feel generous today.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Mr. Zerebecki, you've explained your cheminement through the hiring. Once you applied for your current job, how long did it take before you went through the interview process and whatnot? Did that take a year or...?
5:20 p.m.
As an Individual
I'm still waiting on an offer letter. It's been four weeks, so I don't know exactly when I'll start. I got that application on January 7, so it's been six months. I've been in the priority system for a year. I've consistently applied to every opportunity that came by my desk, and yes, it took a year.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Drouin Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
It's something that we've heard. Once Canadians apply, the average wait time is one year from when you submit your application. I think all of us were sitting here and saying that by that time you're gone and you've found employment somewhere else. Thanks for that.
We've talked about the quota system. Mr. Hicks, you've expressed your opinions on that: If we can't hire veterans, then let's implement a quota system until we change that culture. I think that's the issue. While we all sit here and say, yes, we want to hire veterans, once that is translated it doesn't translate to the people actually doing the hiring down in the weeds, I would say.
What would you recommend? I've heard you say that the higher ranks are fine. They get jobs easily and they're transferable. I know you were in the room when the previous witnesses came here. There's a system in place within DND that helps transfer or sort of transfer your skills from military codes to civilian codes. Have you tried that?
