Government Operations Committee on Nov. 30th, 2020

[Paul Glover, President, Shared Services Canada]

If there are any under way right now, to my knowledge, the answer is no. There have in the past been CITT complaints. We use the ombudsman regularly, and procurement monitors, and it is our intention never to break procurements. It goes against our ability to bulk them up and obtain the best deal for the Government of Canada and the Canadian taxpayer.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I think it could be said that in IT sometimes there's a culture that people may be a little preferential toward one system or service. I'm just wondering if there have been any instances that you know of related to the recent modernization that perhaps are not under investigation now, but were within recent memory.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I'll let Paul answer that again, because I'm not aware of any.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Sure.

[Paul Glover]

I would echo the minister's comment. I'm not aware of that. The vast majority of our procurement is done through competitive processes or through mini-competitions through pre-qualified vendors. It might not be open each and every time. We do over 10 or 11 contracts a day every day, so oftentimes we go to pre-qualified....

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

How often are you audited on that?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Again, I'll ask Mr. Glover to answer that.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's fair.

[Paul Glover]

Mr. Chair, I will have to provide an answer in writing. I'm not sure off the top of my head.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I just happen to have the privilege of being on the public accounts committee as well, where we are often doing studies. I bring this stuff up because there are, as you mentioned, 11 contracts a day. There are significant dealings within this purview related to the emergency funding for CERB.

I would like you to maybe comment on the following. In Ontario, for instance, four of its employees—all family members—defrauded the provincial government of $11 million in COVID relief. They were in the IT field. When you guys heard this story—and I'm sure you would have been briefed on this—what was your response and what did you do to make doubly certain that this wasn't the case with any of the emergency funding that's happening for COVID federally?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you.

Through the chair to the member, I am not aware of that. As a British Columbian, perhaps, I'm not aware of the Ontario example. What I know is that we have very strong principles around openness and accountability to the public.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I do appreciate that, Madam Minister, but the challenge is that you're the minister of digital government. This is a pretty material thing, and I would put to you that the fact that this happened within the IT department of a provincial government ought to have been brought to your attention—and I say that respectfully to your senior staff.

There were claims, or accusations, of IT staffers illegally issuing themselves blank cheques within the IT department. It is a pretty significant thing, and I would ask that after this meeting you be brought up to speed on that. As you know, the security of the IT department in a time of frenzied spending, investments and supports is critically important.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you. I work hand in glove with SSC. I was briefed several times a week as we were standing up the remote work. I have utter confidence in the leadership at SSC.

I know Paul has something to add by way detail here.

[Paul Glover]

Just to reassure the committee, we have a number of checks and balances that would prevent that from happening. There are reviews that have to be done, so you can't negotiate and sign these sorts of examples. There are always multiple sets of eyes.

We also grade our projects in terms of their level of risk, and that determines the level of oversight to make sure that it is provided. That is regularly challenged by our departmental audit committee to make sure the appropriate controls are in place.

During the COVID pandemic, at my request, we actually increased the frequency of our meetings with them to monthly rather than quarterly to make sure they were able to look at what we were doing, and that we had the appropriate controls, because we knew we were moving quickly.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you for that.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I would add that a recent audit of our procurement practices by Deloitte concluded that our practices are sound.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Yes. We hear from Deloitte quite frequently at this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Glover and Mr. Green.

That ends our first round. Now we'll go to our second round.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have five minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Minister, I have a few questions for you.

My first question is about the WeChat application.

As you know, the United States wants to ban this application, which is controlled by the Chinese Communist Party. A few months ago, a member of your cabinet used your WeChat account to collect funds to support a lawsuit against Global News because Global News had spoken about the problem of sending protective equipment to China.

First, was this employee dismissed?

Second, are your offices still using WeChat—yes or no?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thanks for that question. I'm happy to put it on record that WeChat is a social media platform that's used by members on all sides of the House. Participation in this group, like Facebook, is guided by posted guidelines.

It was not a member of my staff who posted a fundraiser. It was a member of the public who was part of that WeChat group. The individual violated the guidelines of my WeChat group and is no longer part of the group.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I'm pleased to hear that. However, as the Minister of Digital Government, do you know that WeChat is under Chinese control and could represent a security problem—yes or no?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Mr. Chair, I do want to point out that the Conservative Party of Canada maintains a WeChat account as well, the only federal party that does so. It is important to do outreach to all members of our community. WeChat is a way to connect with members of the Chinese—

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Minister, I'm not attacking you. I'm asking you the question because you're the minister responsible.

If my party is still using it, I'm going to speak to them about it. That's a separate matter.

For the time being, what I want to know about is what's happening within the Canadian government and federal departments. Is the application still in service? I believe that it is. Do you think it should be banned from our systems?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus, but I have to say that it's not my role as Minister of Digital Government to weigh in. That would be for CSE or our public safety ministry, and we have not heard at this point any concerns about that.