Health Committee on Nov. 16th, 2009

[Dr. Peter Liu]

I think right now it's while the positive dialogue is going on that the opportunity is still there for us to achieve the original goals. I think this is where the evaluation becomes particularly important, because if the effect is not what we were hoping for, then I think it would be important—

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Has the government given any more money to CIHR in terms of the research, which is the three-pronged approach it would include? Is CIHR expected to do this research with its existing funds, or are there additional funds being given for research on sodium?

[Dr. Peter Liu]

In fact, what we are doing is taking this research agenda forward in the January meeting and looking at the scope of the research requirement, particularly in terms of monitoring.

You are absolutely right. Your point is very well taken that indeed additional resources may be required, but I think we want to do this in a deliberate manner in terms of knowing what to do.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Will the January meeting come up with an invoice that you would give the government for what an appropriate research agenda would cost?

[Dr. Peter Liu]

Yes. Well, it certainly will define the scope of the research agenda: the type of programs we require to have the information, and also the budget that will be required to accomplish the goals.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

Would that January meeting also include the cost of what an evidence-based public awareness campaign...? I think most of us believe we do want to change the behaviour of Canadians. Would you be involved in evaluating a public awareness campaign that would really determine whether or not you are changing the behaviour of Canadians?

[Dr. Peter Liu]

Yes, this is also part of the agenda. It's a three-pronged research strategy. It will look, in terms of sodium, at the changes in the population. It will look at the effectiveness of public engagement strategy. And it will look at the food content, which will be important in terms of working with our food industry partners.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, St. Paul's, ON]

In terms of the made-in-Canada reality, is there a reason some of the U.K. approaches, or the Institute of Medicine approach, or the Finnish approach...? What changes would we need here in Canada that we couldn't just adopt? In Finland they don't put salt shakers on the table. Why can't we do that?

[Dr. Peter Liu]

There are some important geographic as well as cultural and system-based considerations, because we're a very large geographic country with diversity in population composition. Some cultural-specific messaging will be important to benefit all the various populations. So I think some of those considerations will probably be important to make sure we have the maximum benefit.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Dr. Liu.

We'll now go to Monsieur Malo.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I would also like to thank the witnesses for joining us this afternoon.

I am always a little surprised when I hear people say that we're in this situation because consumers want food that tastes salty. That amounts to saying that people want to have high blood pressure and to face a greater risk of cardiovascular disease and stomach cancer. It seems to me that if we weigh the facts, we need to ask people if they really want saltier foods and potentially more serious health problems. Do you honestly think that people will admit to preferring saltier foods?

In my view, high-profile companies like Kellogg and Nestlé should play a greater role and show more leadership in getting information out to consumers. They need to let consumers know that they have reduced or plan to reduce the amount of sodium in their products, because independent rigorous studies show that reducing one's sodium intake immediately and dramatically represents a healthy choice with significant health benefits.

Some advertisements sing the praises of having a flat stomach or of eating certain products to achieve a desired body shape. In my opinion, advertisers should also be encouraging people to cut the sodium in their diets in order to be healthier and live longer.

I want to thank you for being here today and for answering this question.

My next comment is directed more specifically to the Kellogg representatives. According to studies done by the World Action on Salt and Health, it would appear that the All-Bran sold in Canada contains more sodium than the same product sold elsewhere in the world. Given that finding, I think we need to make an even greater effort to put things into perspective. You need to be proactive, demonstrate real leadership and show the world that you are taking effective steps to fight cardiovascular disease and reduce the sodium content in food products.

On that note, I will turn the floor over to you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Who would like to comment?

[Catherine O'Brien]

I think the question was addressed to both of us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Ms. O'Brien, do you want to start?

[Catherine O'Brien]

I can only speak from Nestlé's perspective. We absolutely believe we have a role to play in sodium reduction and education of consumers. We are here today to tell you about some of the things we've done. Is there more we can do? Absolutely.

We have regular dialogue with consumers through our 1-800 line, our website, and so forth. We're continuing to share information on sodium and the renovation of our products through those vehicles.

You referenced advertising. We have an ad campaign now that's really about educating people about total health. It says things like “what's not in your food is as important as what is in your food”. We're trying to get people to look at nutrition in a different way.

From Nestlé's perspective, we believe we are embarking on communications with our consumers to educate them on the importance of sodium reduction. It's a journey, and we're on that journey and always open to suggestions about how to do that better.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Go ahead, Ms. Lowry.

[Christine Lowry]

Thank you very much for your question and your comments.

Similar to my colleague, at Kellogg's we are very committed to improving the nutritional credentials of our products. As I mentioned in my statement, we've been doing this over time. As I said, we've removed trans fats, we've removed sugar, and we're looking at sodium. We identified that, yes, we do have a few products that are over 230 milligrams per serving, and we're working very hard, very diligently, to reduce this.

On your observation that one product is different in one country compared to another, we observed that and noted that, and we started putting action plans together.

I can tell you that we're very committed to reducing this slowly over time. As my colleagues at the end of the table have mentioned, we want to phase it in to make sure the Canadian consumer will accept the changes over time. We are very much committed to that. Anyone who's worked on sodium reduction in food will tell you that there are many technical challenges, but we have a team of researchers and developers and processors who are working to do this. And we are going to get to that level of 200 by 2011, if not sooner. That's something we're very much committed to.

We're also committed to education. I think it is really important. Everyone has mentioned the three-pronged approach of the Sodium Working Group. It's education, reducing sodium in the food supply, and research. The more we can help the Canadian population to be literate, to understand how to read the nutrition facts panel, to make those decisions so that they're empowered to manage their nutrition needs.... I think that's key. For the past two years, Kellogg's has put GDAs on our front pack. We tell consumers on the front what percentage of the daily value of sodium is in one serving of that product. Not only is it on the side panel, we've put it on the front of the box.

We think it's really important, all of us, to be involved in trying to help educate consumers on how to read that nutrition facts panel and to make informed decisions.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Speaking of that, Dr. Gray-Donald raised a particular problem. She indicated that the target on the label is not the desirable level of salt intake, but rather the tolerable upper level of sodium intake, tolerable in terms of health. That could present a problem as well.

Doctor Gray-Donald, can you tell me why the target used for sodium intake is not the desirable level of salt intake?

[Dr. Katherine Gray-Donald]

I do not know the background, but we have observed this phenomenon. It's connected to what is happening in the United States. Nutritionists have opted for a daily recommended intake, because it is important to have a figure associated with every nutrient, among other things, because children do not eat as much as adults. They opted for this approach a long time ago and it will be hard to change it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Ms. Gray-Donald.

We'll now go to Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Before I start my line of questioning, I want to make a comment first of all, Madam Chair, and ask for your guidance.

I was quite shocked to listen to the presentation by the representatives of Nestlé Canada in which products were mentioned. Many different products were mentioned. I think it's quite inappropriate for our committee to be used as a forum for any kind of free advertising. In fact, we should consider striking from the record all references to the specific products mentioned in Catherine O'Brien's presentation.

I'll leave that for you to consider, but I think it's just not appropriate for our committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis, I'll speak to that. I'm watching your time, so you won't be robbed of any time. I'll take that under advisement, and I'll get back to you at a later time.

Please continue.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

I would like some kind of plan of action. We hear from industry that they're doing certain things. We've heard, again, from the scientific community that the impact of sodium intake is very significant. We've heard in the past about heart disease, high blood pressure, heart attacks, and you listed some other serious conditions. Now you're telling us it could even be a cause of stomach cancer. We know this is costing us dearly not only in terms of human health and well-being but in terms of cost to our health care system—$2 billion a year.

Frankly, I don't understand why we're still talking about the voluntary approach and why we're buying the line that industry is going to just do it, here are some good products, and never mind the whole picture. If this has been around for so long and you knew about it, why is industry only at this hit-and-miss approach to cutting sodium in products? Why are Canadian products often so much higher in sodium than your company's equivalent in other countries?

We had the example of a cereal—I won't give the name, but it's produced by Kellogg—that is much higher in sodium in Canada than the exact same product in the United States. Is that because you can get away with it here because we don't have tougher regulations, and that in the final analysis you won't get close to the 1,200 milligrams per day, unless you're forced to, because this salt sells your products?

Canadians are taking in 3,500 milligrams a day, and most of it is from packaged products, not from home cooking. What is the industry going to do? If you're not going to do it, I want to hear from others about what should be done to make this happen and happen quickly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Who would like to please take that on?

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

I would like to hear from them both.