Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 16th, 2011

Evidence of meeting #49 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was costs.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Question of Privilege Relating to the Failure of the Government to Fully Provide the Documents as Ordered by the House

Question of Privilege Relating to the Premature Disclosure on November 18, 2010, of the Confidential Draft Report on the Prebudget Consultations of the Standing Committee on Finance by an Employee of the Member for Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar.

Committee Business

MPs speaking

Claude DeBellefeuille

Also speaking

Rob Walsh Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Suzanne Legault Information Commissioner, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Andrea Neill Assistant Commissioner, Complaints Resolution and Compliance, Office of the Information Commissioner of Canada

Don Head Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada

Catherine Kane Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Mel Cappe As an Individual

Alister Smith Associate Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Donna Dériger Acting Senior Director, Financial Management Strategies, Costing and Charging, Financial Management Sector, Office of the Comptroller General, Treasury Board Secretariat

Kevin Page Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

Sahir Khan Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Expenditure and Revenue Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

Mostafa Askari Assistant Parliamentary Budget Officer, Economic and Fiscal Analysis, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Library of Parliament

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

Go ahead.

2:05 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joe Preston

You have about three minutes, Mr. Martin.

2:05 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

It seems to me, Ministers, that instead of the Truth in Sentencing Act, we need a truth in budgeting act. It's like pulling teeth trying to get this information out of you.

How could you have compiled this fat a book and failed to include the capital costs of billions of dollars to build new jails, when you knew full well that what we wanted to know was the whole cost of your crime legislation agenda--this suite of bills?

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

To that, then, where in the motion, Mr. Martin--and I'm not trying to be difficult here, but--

2:05 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

No, you are. You're parsing words and splitting hairs--

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

No, no, wait. Hold it--

2:05 p.m.

Winnipeg Centre, NDP

Pat Martin

--to avoid telling people what they need to know.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

No, no; hold it.

There are certain requests for crime bills, very specific bills. We've responded to those specific bills. If you and I want to have that discussion about what the costs of the prisons are, that's another issue. That's $2.1 billion over five years, but that has nothing to do with--

2:05 p.m.

Winnipeg Centre, NDP

Pat Martin

That's not in here.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

No, and it has nothing to do with the issue before the committee today.

2:10 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

It's like the Rumpelstiltskin defence, where if you don't ask the exact right question, you don't get any answer at all.

I mean, poor Scotty there did his best to put together a comprehensive question, and you skated all around it by answering every question except what we need to know--namely, how much is this going to cost us?

2:10 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Mr. Martin, if I started answering questions that you didn't ask, you'd say I was evading the question.

2:10 p.m.

Winnipeg Centre, NDP

Pat Martin

What we know is your guy--

2:10 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Why don't you simply ask the questions that you need answered on the basis of the motion that's here?

2:10 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

You are splitting hairs to avoid what we really need to know.

Mr. Head there is going to hire 4,000 new prison guards, but is that figure in here? Your $2 billion for building new jails isn't in here. There will be 4,000 new staff persons. Every other government agency is cutting and hacking and slashing every social program by which we define ourselves as Canadians, and his budget is exploding to lock up all these young aboriginal kids--stack them up like cordwood--in prisons.

That's what we're looking at here, and that figure for the 4,000 new staff people for Corrections Canada is not in this book.

2:10 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

Well, look, we've given you the information that you've requested. If--

2:10 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

How much will that cost us?

2:10 p.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB