Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 24th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Mr. Lukiwski, and then Mr. Albrecht.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

I was actually on Mr. McGuinty's point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I'm sorry. I will move you ahead of Mr. Albrecht.

Sorry, Mr. Albrecht.

Mr. Lukiwski.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

I have one quick clarification for Mr. McGuinty before I speak to his original point of order. Mr. McGuinty said that both Mr. Reid and I were suggesting that the document in question should not have been made public. I've never said that. That was Mr. Cappe's contention.

My point--supported by Mr. Reid, or vice versa--is that Minister Oda had no expectations that this document would be made public. And that's the key point here.

But on the document, I just have a simple question. Is that in both official languages? Has it been tabled in both official languages? Well, every other document that's in here--

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

The clerk shares with me that our regular clerk submitted it by e-mail and would not have done so if it was not, it's safe to say. So I have no factual evidence either way.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

And the second point: I haven't received it. I know Mr. McGuinty says that every member has it. I haven't seen it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Obviously we've seen a few documents in this. We'll make sure it's distributed now to make sure it gets to all members of the committee as a verification.

Mr. Lukiwski, on Mr. Reid's motion, was that it?

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

I'm just supportive of it. Obviously it will have to be submitted in both official languages, but I'm quite supportive of that, yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Sure.

Mr. Rae, on Mr. Reid's motion of the tabled documents. I'm sorry, I'm in the restaurant business, so I'm used to asking people questions right after they've taken a bite of something. I'll keep talking and give you a moment to....

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, that's fine, thank you.

The actual relevant documents are not just a single page. The relevant document is all the background information that was part of the ATIP request that provides a full assessment by CIDA of the Kairos application, which is the reason that the Kairos application was signed and approved by Margaret Biggs and by Mr. Singh.

Mr. Lukiwski's argument seems to be that because the minister didn't know or didn't think that these documents would ever be released, therefore it was okay to tell people that the decision not to fund Kairos was made after careful assessment by CIDA and the government, and it was based on a thorough examination of the facts.

What the documents clearly show is that the careful assessment on the facts pointed to an approval of Kairos funding. There is not a single document in place that points to a reason that Kairos would not be funded. There isn't a single recommendation to the minister. There isn't a single document--

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

What does that prove?

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

What it proves--

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

The minister is in charge.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

That's right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Not across the table, gentlemen. We just don't want to go there today.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Obviously Mr. Abbott has admitted to making a misleading statement. It also means that the answer to the order paper question was misleading, because the order paper question answer, which was signed by the minister, which should also be part of the documentary trail in this discussion, clearly indicates that the minister was arguing that this was somehow a collective decision of CIDA and the government that was based on full documentation, when that's not the case at all.

I think that's as important an element of the argument about misleading as anything else. And I think if you're going to have a documentary trail, that has to be part of the documentary trial. That's the material that was discussed at the foreign affairs committee. That's the material that was before us when we cross-examined the minister in the foreign affairs committee in December. That's the material that was before the House when we had a series of questions to the minister. So that's the material, if you want to get at it. That's the issue here we're trying to deal with, in my view.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you.

On Mr. Reid's amendment, I'll go to Mr. Albrecht.

I've added your name, Mr. Reid.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Well, it's unfortunate, Mr. Chair, that Mr. Rae has come in here to this meeting at this point, not having read paragraphs 30, 32, or 33, in which the minister and Ms. Biggs clearly talk about the fact that a CIDA decision is a CIDA official and ministerial decision. It's not just one or the other. And the final decision that Minister Oda made is in fact a CIDA decision. That's the point that we have to keep clear here.

Mr. Chair, the other thing that Mr. Rae raises is all of this background document he is referring to. I haven't seen it. I have to accept his word that all this background material is there. It hasn't been tabled with this committee, so I have difficulty in just proceeding on that.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

I can't understand how you could have proceeded without that material in front of you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Again, the chair will ask. I'm happy to return to the evidentiary portion of this committee, on this point of order on this question of privilege.

I've heard now three or four pieces today saying we need evidence we don't have in hand. I'd be happy to suspend and move back into where we'd get other witnesses before us and get other documents before us.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Chairman, Mr. McGuinty raised this point because Mr. Reid stated that, under the Access to Information Act, the documents should never have been made public, and that it was an error.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

I know how we got there.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

If we dropped Mr. Reid's point… There is no doubt in my mind that Mr. McGuinty is not interested in starting a fight. In any case, this was the headline in every newspaper in December, including The Globe and Mail. That is not the issue. Mr. Chairman, I have a feeling that Conservative members of this committee are using stalling tactics to prevent us from reaching a decision. We have to determine whether Ms. Oda did or did not mislead the House. That is the fundamental issue here. Does she deserve to be accused of contempt of Parliament? Should the House not withdraw its confidence in the government? That is the fundamental issue. At this point, they are simply trying to sidestep the question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joe Preston]

Thank you, Mr. Paquette.

Committees usually get to that by accepting or not accepting a report written by the committee. We're up to clause 2.

Mr. Lukiwski, you're next on the motion by Mr. Reid to submit his documents.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Again, I support it, but since Mr. Rae spoke before me about the need for the committee to have had the entire document....