Evidence of meeting #55 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was opposition.
A video is available from Parliament.
10:25 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
On June 3 does the House turn into a pumpkin? I don't know what happens after June 2, but it sounds like it's really bad, and it requires the opposition to be neutralized to avoid the catastrophic—
10:30 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
—eventuality of June 3. Maybe there's something more fearsome in June 3, and I shouldn't look just at June 2. On June 3, is there a comet coming?
Are they moving us out of here before we're ready, and we have to be done, and we have to sit outside on the lawn in case West Block...? What is it about June 2 that is so sacred that it can't be violated as a deadline? I don't know. We don't know because nobody's telling us anything other than “get 'er done”. Really. Just like that. Oh, and by the way, while you're meeting that deadline, make sure you leave some of your rights at the door.
I wonder how Mr. McGrath and his colleagues would feel about this process being used that way when his greatest pride was the work they did for Parliament, for Canadians, for democracy, and you insult that by having the audacity to hold it up and suggest that somehow that gives legitimacy to this bullshit.
This doesn't end well. It took less than 12 hours and I'm already swearing. I'm going to hear from my mom. She gives me heck every time I do that.
You also know, those who have been around for a while, we run a real risk staying in this mode for any length of time. We all run the risk that we're going to say something in the heat of the battle, cross a line, make a mistake, and then somebody says, wait a minute, that's personal. The next thing you know you have all these dynamics, and those start to pile up... Because remember, we're going to be here for days and days and weeks and, if necessary, months. That's how strongly we feel about this.
So far as long as we prevent you from getting your hooks into our rights, there's nothing you can do about it except get reasonable and get fair. Oh, and by the way, how about trying a little democracy? Because I don't see any of it here. All I see are Liberal shirts with Harper's mandate and approach.
I know some of my Conservatives wish I would stop doing that, and I understand that, but, nonetheless, for the rest of us, it does represent something, especially when this government was elected—as we were offering to be different too when we ran—saying that it was going to be unlike that government at all, and look where we are. Are you proud? I can't wait until you all go back to your ridings and brag to your constituents about the great job you're doing kicking the hell out of the opposition and denying them the right to even consult with their own colleagues. What a great bragging story, how you're building democracy and building Canada. Good luck.
It doesn't seem like much now, and I will predict, Chair, that—well, we know why this was brought in today. Because the budget's tomorrow, and it's going to swamp everything. Somehow they thought if they could just get through a couple of days, I don't know, somehow we were going to fold like a cheap suit, and go running home, and asking for this to end quickly, and to stop hurting us. I don't know. I can only go so far in that kind of thinking because I don't get it. I don't get the politics.
Sometimes in politics not nice things happen. I've been around a long time. I've served all three orders of government. I've sat in just about every corner of a House you can sit in including the cabinet, and for the life of me I cannot figure what the government is doing.
Why do you want to taint your brand so badly when on a similar file, electoral reform, you not only broke a promise, you outright betrayed it? I know there are government members who agree. I don't expect you to say anything, of course, but we know. We talk.
On the heels of that file with all those upset new Liberals, some who left the Conservatives or the Greens or us to make sure there was strategic voting and to make sure that you got there so that things could be different from what we had before.... Now on the same kind of file with the same constituency that cares about this, you're showing them how undemocratic you can be again. This time you don't even have a mandate. Last time you had one and betrayed it. You got things kind of backwards. You're supposed to do the things you promised and not do things you didn't promise.
Things come up, we all understand that and quite frankly had this come up during the review that we would do, there's a different way of approaching this. But to all of a sudden out of nowhere, Chair, and I know this matters to you because you're responsible for our end result, for them to drop this on us, we then get caught up in the minutiae. Your job is to keep an eye on the horizon to try to deliver us to success. This process isn't going to do that, Chair. All it's doing is damaging everything. We just had the Minister of Democratic Institutions come in here and ask us nicely, respectfully—and I appreciated that's the way it should be—and I think we responded in kind when the minister said that she that would very much like to make sure that however we did our work, she could benefit from our thinking so she could have that advice as she makes her decision about the law that she was going to introduce. She'd like to get it ahead of time. She asked if she possibly could have it by May 19.
And again, and I used the term earlier, that made our heads explode. We wondered how we were going to do that. And again, that's when we maybe we could move, because we were really trying to do it because we were all engaged in that. We've already got hours and hours invested in that report. We care about it because it's our precious election, especially when we see what's going down south of the border. It should give us renewed effort to shore up our democracy, not weaken it further.
There are so many different ways we could have done this. We could have struck a special committee as they've done in the past. We could have struck a subcommittee of this group. We could have looked at trying to identify things that the government legitimately could say they wanted to have by June 2. We could maybe make those a priority. But more than anything, we have to agree on what constitutes making a decision, because that's the motion in front of us, that no decision will be made unless there's all-party agreement. The government is opposed to it.
In the absence of any kind of an alternative amendment or a suggestion, that leaves us with no conclusion except that the government is quite prepared and comfortable with the idea that they and they alone with their massive majority would force changes on the rules of this place, on how we make laws, that also would have the effect of taking away the rights of the minority. How the hell is that in the great tradition of the McGrath report? They said, and I want to read it again, these are our predecessors talking to us about how proud they were of their work on the same file that we have right now. And what did McGrath say?
I wish to thank my six colleagues on the committee for their patience and support.
That tells you it wasn't easy. When they use the word “patience”, I wouldn't have expected that word. That tells me there was a lot of toing and froing and all kinds of consultation and meetings in an attempt to reach consensus because it's not easy.
10:35 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
“The way it should be”, as my friend says.
And there was “support”, which also suggests that there was leadership within the group that was taking some ownership. I'd be very interested to find out the micro-details of exactly how they did it, because those are interesting words to use. They weren't the words that I would normally expect in a preface from a chair saying thanks to the committee for “their patience and support”. Now, “support” I guess, in being chair, would mean they respect the chair and look to their chair for leadership. That might explain the support. But “patience” is an interesting word to use—connected to consensus.
They didn't get there easily. If doing this easily were all that easy, every other country would have a Canada. It's not easy, and that's why the chair is going out of his way to say thank you.
Then he said, “That we were able to operate by consensus without once voting on an issue is a testament to their selfless dedication to reform.” Why selfless? Why did he use the word “selfless”? Why? Because there were probably people putting water in their wine where it wasn't in their interest to take that position, but in the broader interest of give and take, they were willing to make some compromises.
With “selfless”, I don't see anything selfless about what this government is doing. If anything, it's 100% selfish, and certainly undemocratic.
Their “dedication to reform”, again, is an interesting choice of words. You know what that says? It says that there were people there who were agreeing with things they maybe didn't necessarily agree with, but were willing to accept that, because probably in a couple of other places other people put a little water in their wine and collectively overall they were able to balance it out. Maybe that's why they used the word “patience”, because it took so much to keep going back and finding that consensus.
I can't believe it was that much easier then being an MP than it is now. They had the same divisions and partisanship that we have, yet they were able to operate by consensus without once voting. Again, the fact they said “without once” sounded like maybe they got close a couple of times, where there was no choice. They were going to have to vote, yet somehow they pulled it back, probably with the help of the chair.
Chair, that's why I mentioned Mr. Preston, your predecessor, and the respect that you now have garnered. Different person, different personality, different approach, same result. Good committee. Good team work. We trust you.
I'm a New Democrat, you're a Liberal. I trust you. I trust you when you have your hands on the steering wheel of this committee. Why, Chair? Because I think I could apply that to you: “selfless dedication to reform”. I could easily say “selfless dedication to the procedure and House affairs committee”. Having this committee function the way it should and be successful for Parliament is more important to you than your personal advancement as the chair.
I believe that about you, Chair. I believe that, and I trust you. If you said to me whatever and you ended it with “trust me”, I would. I don't believe you would work in cahoots with your Liberal colleagues to do us in. Maybe you'll prove me wrong, but I would, every time, at the drop of a hat, say that I have complete faith and trust in your abilities and your motivation as the chair of our committee.
I believe that they probably had that same feeling about their chair, and that chair probably helped them get through the difficulty of consensus. If consensus were easy, everybody would do it all the time.
Unfortunately, Chair, given the process that we're in here, the niceties and the professionalism and the nuances you might bring really aren't going to do anything right now. It's got to be breaking your heart that this committee is going where it's going, given how well we've been doing so far. I don't expect you to say anything, but I do believe that. I believe that this would not make you a happy chair to see this happening, and that you would much prefer that we did what Mr. McGrath said, when he said, “Others in the future will continue and improve upon the work of this committee.”
I honestly believe that you could see yourself and would like to see yourself sitting in the driver's seat with your hands on the steering wheel, decades later in your time, doing the same job for Parliament that Mr. McGrath did for his committee and his Parliament. I believe that.
But, Chair, you can't do anything about where we are now. We are so far in the ditch, and for what? That's the thing: for what? It's not going to work. We are not going to let go. The second we let go, Chair, in this filibuster, we sell out. I'm going to use that term; I'm going to put that pressure on me.
The second this filibuster fails, we sell out our future MPs who don't happen to find themselves in government, because it means that filibustering as a legitimate, democratic tool is dead in Canada. You can poll every single member of the opposition benches, and I will all but guarantee you that every one of them would say to you, “I'm willing to go to the wall”. To anybody who has doubt, I say stay tuned, stay tuned. This Parliament has a long way to go.
I don't know how many members we have on the opposition benches. What's the quick math?
You guys have 180 and some odd, and we have...?
10:40 p.m.
Conservative
10:40 p.m.
Conservative
10:40 p.m.
An hon. member
So it's 144.
10:40 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Do you know what? That's a pretty good-sized little army in a place like this. I know a lot of them, and they can talk as well if not better than I can. Once we ever get a chance to brief our caucus, which will happen anyway—even though the government wouldn't let us do it before we had to speak, it's still going to happen—let me tell you.
Do you know how cranked up those opposition caucus meetings are going to be tomorrow? I know that by the time I'm done, I will be disappointed if I don't have every member of my caucus on the ceiling ready to bleed to defend this filibuster. I will have failed, if that's not how that meeting ends, and I don't intend to fail. I know that Blake is planning to do the same thing with his caucus, and he has every expectation that his colleagues will be there, just as the NDP will be.
There, then, are the two extremes.
Blake, I'm serving you notice that I'm getting ready to hand off to you.
So there we are, Chair, the two great divides: the promise in 1984 of what they did, in the hope that we could do that and better, versus the reality of the government's jamming changes down our throat with no consensus, no input into the motion, no input into how we're going to do it, and wanting to preserve the right that they can make these changes unilaterally and not even adjourn the damn debate long enough to take the proposals to our caucus. I suspect Mr. McGrath is spinning at the disrespect that's being shown to their legacy and to our Parliament.
I said earlier to Blake that I would take just a couple of hours to warm up and get myself into the groove here, and it's working. As much as I have to hand it off, I can't wait to get back here, and I shall be back, but it won't be until after I have properly briefed my caucus; then I shall return. When I return, I will have a mandate and I will be even firmer and stronger and probably louder than I am now—
10:45 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
—and well rested to boot. Thank you. I'm going to get some rest.
Again, I leave it with the government, because the government started this. It's their process, it's their fault, it's their everything.
10:45 p.m.
Conservative
10:45 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Mr. Chair, I'm enjoying listening to the member who is speaking, and I think there's a fair bit of noise and conversation in other parts of the room. A little bit is fine, but if folks can maybe just step out into the hallway when we're still in session so that we can keep a good flow to the discussion here at the table, that would be good.
10:45 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair. I appreciate the intervention.
Again, what was the request? It was for a little more respect. Even during the debates here, we have to haul it back to that. To me, it's symptomatic of where we are. This is really bad. This is ugly. This serves no one's interest. For those Canadians who do pay attention, it's going to be a combination of being disappointed and angry. They are going to be angry that the government is doing this, and they are going to be angry at all of us that so much time and effort is being wasted.
There are no winners here. The winners would be Parliament, all of us, and all of Canada if we approached this the same way we've tried to approach everything else. All that really is doing—and I'll conclude on this, Chair—is asking the government, “How about living up to your promises?” They promised to show respect to committees. There's none here. They promised to listen to committees. We're not being listened to; we're being dictated to. They promised more independence, and yet we watched as the senior staffer—they didn't even hide it; they didn't even send an email—walked right up behind Mr. Chan and made him change his position.
When it comes to committees, this government has broken all of its promises so far, with the exception of a couple of minor ones. Every day we are left to wallow here in this ugly, undemocratic ditch does more damage to the government's brand and to Canadians' belief that they really are and really meant to be different. At the end of the day, so far, this bunch at this committee looks just like the last bunch.
Until tomorrow, Chair, I relinquish the floor. Thank you for the opportunity to speak.
10:50 p.m.
Liberal
10:50 p.m.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, David.
One of the advantages of a discussion of this structure, a filibuster, is that I have had time to write down what I want to say. I'm a much better writer than I am a speaker, so I hope you'll forgive me for reading my comments. I'm getting a little tired and will be brief.
We are, of course, always open to further off-line discussion, as we tried earlier. I'm always open to doing more.
The motion, as presented by Scott Simms, is far from imposing our will. I want to make that clear. We want to have a discussion, and the House leader wants to add her voice to a study already in progress. I don't see a problem with a government that ran on an agenda of modernizing Parliament having the House leader express her views. This is a request to expand an existing study. The motion is not creating changes. It is trying to get a study running to propose thematic rather than specific changes. We have the S. O. 51 debate, and now the letter from the minister, as guidance and suggestions for topics to discuss.
I don't think we should prejudge the study. I am fully aware that we can one day return to your side of the table and that you will have plenty of opportunities to obstruct further along in this process.
This motion is not drafting standing orders—
10:50 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. I think Garnett made some very valid points earlier, but I think, with all due respect, that he kind of has to follow his own advice at this point.
10:50 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Mr. Chair, that is absolutely outrageous and beyond the pale as an intervention by Mr. Simms, but I will do my best to moderate my behaviour, all the same.
I'm just kidding.
10:50 p.m.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
As I was saying, the motion is not drafting standing orders. The study is about witnesses, findings, and recommendations. Incidentally, it also specifically seeks to include independent members into the study, something we were accused of not doing—see paragraph (b) of the motion.
Mr. Reid, in particular, has proposed a lot of very interesting ideas. I'd like to get on with the study to discuss them and have the witnesses come in to evaluate them. That's what they are for. I'm very much looking forward to engaging all of you, and the witnesses you propose, on all these issues, and I agree with many of the comments that have come out, especially in Scott Reid's lengthy intervention.
Let's have a study to discuss the substantive topics. I have a good deal to say, but in the study, not in the creation of the study. Moreover, nothing precludes every member here from taking this topic to caucus tomorrow to discuss it and come back on Thursday or at any point during the study. The call for taking this to caucus is unnecessary. This motion does not make any changes; it creates a discussion.
I would suggest that we have the vote on the amendment and the main motion so we can have the substantive discussion that we are proposing. At least I will express that hope.
Thank you, Chair. That's all I have for the moment. I won't drag it on.
