Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 21st, 2017

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

What piqued my interest was when he talked about Michael Chong's bill—or motion, that's what it was—because I found it very interesting. I'm getting ahead of myself, but to be quite honest with you, when I was envisioning for this to be passed, and we were going to have an all-out discussion on what was in not just this discussion paper but other sorts of proposals as well, he had a very interesting proposal.

If I'm wrong on this, forgive me, Michael, if you're out there listening.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

He's out there.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

He's out there somewhere, yes.

I hope I don't get this wrong, but the characterization will be legitimate. That is, you have what you would call a “general” question period. It's a relationship between yourself and the Speaker. You petition to have your question heard in the House by the Speaker, absent of the whips. On the tail end of a question period, you'll have that one time for—we all know how it will turn out—mostly questions about your riding. I found myself in that position when I used to ask questions, especially on the Friday, because....

I won't go back to the Friday debate, but Fridays were days when let's just say the presence of members was rather scarce. I mean that in an actual physical way. I'm not saying they were devoid of any intellect. I'm just saying that they weren't there, and it was only a four and a half hour day.

I used to ask questions specifically about my riding. Of course, I did get permission from the whip, and the list was handed to the Speaker. I used to hand the question to the minister, either the day before or the morning of, before I would ask it. The minister was actually Gail Shea. It was about the fishery, because the fishery is a big thing in my riding. I found it a very productive exercise, because I knew that she knew what the question was. Therefore, if the answer had nothing to do with my question, then obviously that was odd. It wasn't a way for me to entrap her into that. It was just a way for me to try to get an answer. The exercise proved to be a fruitful one.

At any rate, the reason I bring that up—I'd like to think it's germane to the situation—is that these are the ideas we can talk about. We're not saying that what is in this discussion paper is exclusive to this entire exercise of coming up with this report. These are issues that I discuss with the House leader. These are issues that we discuss as a caucus and that the House leader discusses with us. It was to start the conversation by saying, “Here are some of our ideas. Let us now go forward and see how fruitful we can be in this whole exercise.”

I just wanted to add a few words about that. I want to thank Garnett for allowing me that, and for the unanimous consent as well.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you.

Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Simms, I appreciate your comments.

These are, of course, ideas that members have brought up and discussed. I spoke to them when I had the opportunity to make a speech in the House about potential changes to the Standing Orders. They really relate to two separate issues: the question of question period changes and the use of party lists in general.

I'll say, by the way, that I didn't mean to bring up Michael Chong. I think you are correct that it was a motion about question period. I did not bring it up as sort of a wholehearted endorsement of the content, but just to say that there are good ideas about changes to question period, and that our opposition to revolutionary change should not be construed as an opposition to any kind of change. It's simply an opposition to change that is radical and unilateral, and that doesn't reflect the best judgment either of those present or of those in the past.

G.K. Chesterton had a phrase that I quite like. He talked about respect for tradition being an acknowledgement of the democracy of the dead, in other words the inclusion of opinions past and present, of people who are no longer with us. The democracy of the dead, it has a real ring to it. I think it might refer to voter fraud as well, but that's not what G.K. Chesterton had in mind.

Specifically, with respect to the point, I think it is a very good thing to explore the question of reducing the use of party lists. What's interesting is that the Standing Orders do not speak at all of the use of party lists, either for question period or any other time. It would be very easy for members to think that the rules say that the whip gives the name of the member, and the member on the list given by the whip is the one who speaks next. What the rules say, in fact, that if Mr. Schmale is on the list and I stand up first—even if he stands up as well but I stand up first—the Speaker should call on me, and that includes during question period.

The practice that we normally observe, in fact, is that the Speaker calls on the member next, even if that member is not standing. The member who is about to speak next may well be sitting, yet the Speaker calls on that member—anticipating that they will stand—on the basis of their presence on a list. Is that something that should probably be discussed in a review of the Standing Orders? Sure. If nothing else, we might say that the Standing Orders should reflect reality, but I think there is some wisdom in the system that is envisioned by the Standing Orders.

I think question period should include some opportunities for what we informally refer to as a leaders' round, for the leaders of opposition parties and lead critics to pose specific questions that reflect the priorities of the collective of the opposition. However, it would be easy to figure out some allocation of question period between a period of time that was more oriented for those leader- and/or front bench-type questions and time for members to pose questions reflecting their own priorities that don't involve a list. Of course, informally, parties might have some system of coordinating them, but the absence of the list at least creates a certain degree of uncertainty and therefore flexibility.

I've spoken about this before. I think this is a good opportunity for study and discussion of the Standing Orders. What is striking to me, Mr. Simms, looking at the discussion paper that we received from the House leader, is the absence of a discussion about those kinds of changes to either the present Standing Orders or the practices of the House. They are the kinds of changes that would actually strengthen the role of individual members of Parliament relative to the front bench.

This is the kind of discussion paper that we would expect somebody in the cabinet to put forward. It's the kind of discussion paper that speaks to changes that are not only talking about advantaging the government caucus versus the opposition caucus, but that deal with issues that are the priorities of party leaders and those around them, as opposed to the priorities of others in parties. Those who are not part of a leadership team of a party might be much more likely to raise questions of, “What about party lists? What about the fact that they informally, though not formally, put all the power in terms of who speaks in the hands of the whips?”

These are important questions. We have a discussion, though, framed fully through the lens of a discussion paper generated by the government House leader and then through a motion that does not require the engagement of all members of the committee.

I say again, with respect to party lists, that members of the government caucus should appreciate that this is about changing the rules in a way that could not only disenfranchise the opposition but could weaken the important role government caucus members who are not part of the cabinet can have in providing that kind of accountability check. That is to the issue of party lists.

I'll add this, Mr. Simms, to the point you made about sharing the questions in advance. This is the point I made when I spoke to the Standing Orders in the House. We already have a system in place in the Standing Orders that involves ministers having received questions in advance and having longer periods of time to respond to them, as well as longer periods for the opposition to pose those questions. We already have that. It's called, informally, the late show, or more formally, adjournment debate.

Adjournment debate is when questions that have already been asked in the House, that have been given in advance, are re-asked in long form, and the responses can be given in long form, and then there is a chance for follow up. The problem with adjournment debate is that it happens at the end of the day, that it doesn't get a lot of attention or focus, and that the minister is never the one who answers. It's almost always the parliamentary secretary, and sometimes it's the parliamentary secretary not responsible for the file. He or she is just there to check that box.

The culture that has grown up around adjournment debate is that the House is virtually empty. The other thing is that the way the scheduling works is that you end up receiving your allocation for the adjournment debate question months after the original question was asked. It may still be relevant. It may be a point that's worth coming back to, or the underlying dynamics may have dramatically changed on the question you are seeking to pose.

What I propose as a simple reform, as an incremental but sensible reform, is to switch the time a little bit, with question period at two o'clock, followed by the late show, and statements by members moved to the end of the day. The minister responsible for the file would be required to be present in the House to answer the question at what we now call the late show. It would have to have a different name, given that it would happen at a different time. Given that there would be flexibility around the scheduling, it would be quite easy to be accommodating of the minister's schedule. If the foreign affairs minister was out of the country for a particular week, you could very easily schedule those late shows on the following day. Again, you would have to have a different name for them, but let's call them long-form question and response supplementary oral questions.

Would that reform help the opposition or the government? I think it actually would just be good for substantive discussion on issues. The ministers might say it's disadvantageous to the ministers, because the ministers would then have to be in the House for longer than they would otherwise be. On the other hand, it would save time at the end of the day, when a parliamentary secretary would perhaps have to return. It would create additional opportunities for members to be present and hear parts of that discussion. I think it would enhance our democracy by providing that opportunity for more substantive debate.

That's a change to the Standing Orders. In the framework of a study, where there is an acceptance of a principle moving forward unanimously, we could say, “Yes, this is a change, this is a reform, that might make some sense”. It would allow us to enhance the effectiveness of our institutions.

It's not a dramatic change, but it's a change that could enhance the effectiveness of our institutions and not be done in a way that dramatically changes the grounds under which oppositions parties are operating. It would be a change that would be respectful of the opposition.

It's striking to me, as we look at the discussion paper, the motion, and the opposition that we see from the government to the amendment we're putting forward, that there isn't a discussion of some of what I think are critical issues for the way that the House operates. There are critical issues, which fundamentally are about members of Parliament, as opposed to, strictly speaking, the government opposition dynamic. All of us who are in this room, first and foremost, are members of Parliament. We can see the value of that and grab that opportunity to stand up for our position in the House as members of Parliament, not simply as members of government or opposition, although, of course, I have spoken about the importance of the roles we have as members of government and opposition.

I appreciate the points made by Mr. Simms. I'll come back, though, to talking about the discussion paper and its relationship to the motion and the amendment, because I didn't yet speak directly about this issue of the Prime Minister's question time. Those who talk about Prime Minister's question time recognize that this is an institution that exists in the U.K. There are ways that our Parliament and our traditions build off of the British tradition, and I've spoken to some extent about that. There are obviously ways that our traditions, through continuous evolution, have evolved to have slightly different characteristics. The daily question period is important. The accountability of the government five days a week is important, and we would like to see the Prime Minister engage with that process on as many days as possible.

There is nothing to stop the Prime Minister from answering every question on one day a week. He is welcome, under the present rules, to do that. Of course, under the present rules, he chooses not to attend question period quite frequently. There are instances where it appears that the Prime Minister is present in the general vicinity yet he does not attend question period. I acknowledge that the Prime Minister has to travel internationally at certain times; there are weeks when he is not here at all.

As we speak about a Prime Minister's question time, if we move forward in the direction that's envisioned by the discussion paper, we effectively give the Prime Minister licence, just as a matter of course, to not be present in question period on four days a week—or maybe three days a week, if other recommendations of the discussion paper were to move forward. However, it is a giving of “social licence”, let's call it, for the Prime Minister not to be present in question period. Also, there are periods of time when the Prime Minister travels or may indeed have other legitimate responsibilities.

On both of those fronts, on the front informed by the prospective change to the Standing Orders, but also on the front of the realities of the Prime Minister's schedule, that further reduces the presence of the Prime Minister in question period. I think many Canadians would be struck and surprised by that, especially in light of a system in Canada where the Prime Minister is particularly powerful. A discussion that I guess informs this discussion would be, what are the powers of the Prime Minister, what should they be, and does he have too much power?

Certainly, the present power of that office means that the occupant of that office, out of respect for his office—as well as for Parliament—needs to ensure he is frequently available to respond to questions that are posed.

As to the changes envisioned for question period in terms of the number of question periods, as well as the presence of the Prime Minister in them, I can anticipate the defence, which is that if the Prime Minister answers a lot of question on one day, he might end up answering as many or more questions on that day as he would throughout the week. Okay, but there is something to the government being accountable five days a week and to the Prime Minister being accountable to answer questions on as many of those days as is reasonably possible, and to at least, in a sense, if he chooses to be absent too much, be accountable for that absence, to be challenged in a public way about the fact that he may not be attending question period as much as he should. The opportunities that exist for that regular accountability would be dramatically changed by the introduction of this change.

It doesn't mean, by the way, that this is something that can't be studied or shouldn't be studied. Again, it's the Prime Minister's prerogative, on behalf of the government, to choose to answer more questions that are posed in question period. If he were to do both—to improve his attendance record in question period and to also answer more questions—I don't think he would get any complaints from us about that.

That is provided for in the existing rules, but a fundamental change in the expectations around the presence of the Prime Minister in question period is something that, as we should all be able to agree, would require the buy-in of all members of Parliament in the process of that change, I think, in that we should be involved in and consenting to changes that would take place in that context. That is precisely what we are protecting. Again, it is not just about the ability of the opposition. It is about the ability of members of the government caucus, but it's particularly about the opposition, which obviously has a very important role in being able to hold the government accountable.

I have to say that the direction envisioned in terms of Order Paper questions here is not at all clear to me. I think there is an argument for changes to the whole process of Order Paper questions, but in a direction that would actually require that the government be held accountable for cases where there are some concerns about the information that has been provided and where there is perhaps a dissonance between the information provided and what appears to be the reality. There should be some greater mechanism for accountability for that.

Again, this discussion paper, which is supposed to form the basis of a study on which the opposition would have no guaranteed say, frames this purely in terms of the kinds of concerns that a government House leader would have, not in terms of the kinds of priorities that you would expect to be at the forefront of the minds of members of the opposition.

Next, then, there's this issue of omnibus legislation that is discussed here, and again we see the entry of partisan language into what is supposed to be ostensibly a more dispassionate discussion paper. It shows, I think, a lack of interest in genuine productive discussion and, in fact, in reality shows what we see as the desire of the government to be dictating to the opposition. We see that tone in terms of the language, and then we see the government seeking to come up with a distinction between the kinds of omnibus bills they do and the kinds of omnibus bills, so-called, that the previous government did, in a way that allows them to defend their omnibus bills and criticize other omnibus bills. Transparently, the last budget brought forward by this government was an omnibus bill.

Of course it dealt in general terms with the economy, but it dealt with many different things that are related to the economy. The same could be true of legislation that was brought forward by the previous government and by others previous. You have a budget bill that deals with a range of different subjects that are relevant to the budgetary plans of the government and the government's economic agenda.

The discussion paper makes a bit of a false comparison. It says there's an ability of the clerk to divide written questions, so the Speaker could do the same on omnibus bills. This would amount to a very substantial amount of power to give to one person, the Speaker who would unilaterally split a bill. It's quite a bit of power for one, even certainly an important officer of the House to have.

On the other hand, having the splitting of omnibus bills done by a Speaker who certainly is a neutral person, but is not one who is representative of the opposition.... The Speaker is not supposed to be representative of anyone of course, but this does not allow an opportunity for the opposition to be engaged in discussion or decisions about what actually constitutes an inappropriate omnibus bill.

Usually the objections about what is and is not an omnibus bill, of course, come from the opposition. It's the opposition who would have these concerns about a bill with too many different themes that are just lumped together. That is the kind of concern you would expect to come from the opposition.

To expect that the Speaker could unilaterally divide legislation, to think it particularly likely that the Speaker would use that power in a context in which the Speaker is an elected member of Parliament, and ultimately, in the context where it's generally difficult for the Speaker to make these kinds of highly subjective calls—the question of whether things relate to an overall unifying theme or not—it would be very difficult to say definitively, yes or no, what that relationship would be.

Yet this puts that power solely in the hands of the Speaker. I think it risks situations where the opposition would perhaps inadvertently be in a position of disagreement with the Speaker, which creates other potential questions and challenges. Again, I'm not at all opposed to the idea of having a discussion about what constitutes an omnibus bill for the purposes of being reasonable and not reasonable. There are certain kinds of omnibus bills that make sense. I think the government should have a budget every year. I think the budget should deal with a variety of different things related to an overall unifying theme, and the degree to which that may or may not apply is something that reasonable people can and will continue to disagree with.

I think there needs to be a discussion about omnibus bills in a way that speaks to the kinds of concerns that opposition parties might have. How would opposition parties be inclined to express those concerns? What kinds of processes or Standing Order reforms would allow the opposition to effectively bring forward the kinds of concerns they have?

We can have that discussion. We can have that discussion here at this committee under the framework established by the Conservative amendment, an amendment that prescribes a framework whereby there's a discussion that can take place, perhaps a bit of horse-trading, perhaps a bit of coming around to each other's perspectives, looking for those improvements that are beneficial to all, and more importantly that are in the public interest, and moving forward on them.

Yes, some of that discussion might involve omnibus bills, but that is a discussion that should engage all parties, and certainly engage the kind of perspective that opposition will bring, as well as the kind that the government will bring.

Moving on, as we look at the kind of framework established by the discussion paper, we see that the discussion paper speaks to the management of committees. It speaks to the way in which committees operate. One of the changes it would make, of course, is that it would seek to impose time limits for members' speeches at committee. I know members of the government are thinking this would limit their opportunity to hear from someone like me in a context like this. I know that's not something that they would want to do through changes to the Standing Orders.

However, what should be clear in the midst of this exercise is that it's important for the opposition to have certain procedural tools to use in extreme circumstances. When the opposition feels, as we feel as a unified opposition, that this motion, in the absence of the amendment, would severely tread on the rights and privileges of members, we should have an ability to raise the level of attention on this issue, to raise, in a sense, the intensity of that discussion. The opportunity to talk the issue through fully is one of those tools that members have. I think my colleague from the NDP, Mr. Christopherson, made the point very well earlier that sometimes having the ability to press that panic button doesn't mean you're going to do it.. Having the ability to do it—and he made the analogy to strikes—might mean that you actually push it very rarely, but the fact that it exists as an option is a mechanism for forcing the government to participate meaningfully in this conversation.

Earlier in the evening, we were almost there. As we were discussing the amendment, we had agreement for a period of temporary recess and discussion between parties, between members of parties, and I presume between other staff members in their parties. Those discussions took place. At that time we didn't get to an agreement. I'm hopeful that at some point in the future we will see agreement from the government to pass the amendment. However, the fact that the opposition had options and had a capacity to raise these issues gave us an ability to at least start to force those conversations, an ability that we wouldn't have had under the framework envisioned by this.

If you think in general about the time management aspect, the proposal around so-called programming or what might be better called “automatic time allocation” or “automatic closure”, were the government to move these things through unilaterally without engaging the opposition in the conversation, the effect would be that the opposition wouldn't really have any meaningful tools at our disposal, other than being able to speak in the limited time prescribed for us by the government. We could only speak when and for the time permitted as prescribed by the government. That would be it. We wouldn't have the opportunity to challenge the government in the more extended way that is necessary. We have evolved to appreciate the value of being able to do that within the type of parliamentary system that we have in Canada. Yes, we have a made-in-Canada solution already, one that has evolved to include and reflect the collective wisdom of the history that is embedded in our institutions.

I should say as well that my concern about the time limits imposed at committee isn't just about situations like this one, where it is important for us to press the panic button and say to each other and the public, “Whoa—something important is going on here.” It's not just for situations like that. It is also important because it allows members to actually air out substantive issues in a way they just wouldn't have time for in the House of Commons.

Let's remember what committees are for. Committees are opportunities for members of Parliament to develop specific and deep expertise in topics that reflect their own interests, their own constituencies, or assignments they've been given, whatever the case may be. Recognizing that we cannot all be experts in every public policy issue that is up for discussion, we can drill deep into specific areas and develop a deep knowledge and appreciation for the challenges and conflicts. Then we can talk out and explore them in the context of the committee with a depth that is not available in the House of Commons.

I sometimes find that 10 minutes or 20 minutes just isn't enough time to get around an idea that I want to convey in the House of Commons. I'm sure at least Mr. Graham feels that way sometimes too. I don't know about other members. There are some topics—and it's not every topic, of course, but for me it's almost every topic—

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

What about Rouge park?

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Twenty minutes was not enough for Rouge National Urban Park. It was enough for some of the members who were sitting behind me for the camera shot. They were done with hearing from me on that topic after 20 minutes.

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

This doesn't happen too often when you're listening to a member for a lengthy amount of time, listening to the debate and the discussion. I just want to offer a bit of thanks for the intervention. I think all members, regardless of their position on the debate and the discussion today, can agree that it has been an impressive intervention, an impressive speech by Mr. Genuis. I'd like to offer him congratulations.

I think all members would join me in thanking him for that intervention.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

This is a rare moment of our coming together and—

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

We didn't do that for Christopherson.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I'm just saying that maybe this is a new tone of collegiality. I would like to—

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Could I speak on the same point?

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Go ahead on the same point.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I have just one quick question. I keep hearing “Mr. Genius". I'm pretty sure that's not how you pronounce your name. I was wondering if you could clarify that for us.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

First of all, with respect to the point of order, thank you, Mr. Donnelly, for your kind words. I hope you enjoy the latter three-quarters of my intervention as much as you've enjoyed the first quarter of it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Could you answer the question about—

[Fin Donnelly, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

I must say though, Mr. Chair, if I could just finish, that I really did enjoy the bringing of the Magna Carta into the discussion. I thought that was, so to speak, ingenious.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Let's end on that high note. We're suspended until noon tomorrow—or today, rather—in deference to caucus meetings.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

I call this meeting to order. I hope everyone's refreshed from a good night's sleep.

We're continuing the discussion on the motion of Mr. Scott Simms.

[David Graham, Liberal, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

On a point of order, before we go back into Mr. Genuis's speech, you may have heard that there was a shooting outside Westminster a few minutes ago, and their Parliament has suspended. I'm going to invite you, colleagues, to join me in expressing our solidarity with our colleagues in the United Kingdom.

That's all I want to say at the moment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

That is unanimous.

There was an outstanding question last night at 3 a.m. on the pronunciation of Garnett's last name. I wonder if he could answer the outstanding question in the same—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The members may want closure on this question, but I am frankly very concerned about the use of closure—