Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 21st, 2017

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

You will advise the committee at some point what your thoughts are after you've had a chance to think about that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Yes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Chair, while we're dealing with procedural matters and the discretion and ruling of the chair, I would like to raise an issue that both the official opposition and ourselves that we've talked about. I suspect that my friend Mr. Richards is likely going to want to jump into this too.

Here's the issue. Originally when the government invoked their trickery to keep the committee in session well after we were supposed to adjourn last Tuesday at one o'clock, we thought that it looked like it was going to be 24-7, which is very straightforward, and we would just continue to meet 24-7, as has happened around here before.

Instead—and we can only go by what we see happening, because you folks have all the control, not us—what we see happening over the last couple of days is that at your discretion, which is within your purview, you decide when the committee will suspend. One morning you chose 3 a.m. Last evening, you chose midnight.

I'm doing this in the friendliest possible way, Chair. This is not a frontal attack on you, but depending on the answer, it could be problematic. Let's stay on the nice side of things.

I won't speak for colleagues, but I got the impression that there were government members who knew before you ruled when you were going to rise. First of all, that would be a real problem for us, because it would suggest that, unlike what we thought was a dispassionate honest broker, a non-partisan chair, there are indeed some cahoots going on between you and the government members. I know that you would not want to leave that impression. I'm just going to say that it's an impression right now.

That's a problem. If you'll allow me, I'll extrapolate on why that's a bigger problem going forward. The case this instant case, you can understand. If there's any sense that the government has a sense of when they're going to suspend and we don't, it gives them the ability to call their people ahead of time and say not to bother coming in. There's a whole big advantage to knowing that, and we can't do anything until we hear you publicly make a ruling.

It also violates our obvious privilege rights: we have a right to be informed of the decisions of the chair at the same time as the government members. Conversely, it would be unfair for the chair to privately tip the government members as to where the chair is going in a ruling and leave the opposition members in the dark.

I know, Chair, that you can see this, and I would assume—you'll speak for yourself—that you would agree that this is an untenable situation, if that's indeed where we were.... I'm not suggesting that we are. I am suggesting, sir, that I'm starting to get the impression that it's at least possible for that to have happened, and I'm trying to raise it early.

However, here's the bigger issue, Chair. Right now, it looks as if we're going to be here in the ditch and at war over this amendment going into the weekend, going into the constituency week, all the way through the weekend following, and still be engaged here when we come back a week later. That's what we assume is going to happen. We've made no secret of the fact that the NDP and the Conservatives are working together. We're putting together a roster of members to sit here. We're working in coordination, in partnership, on this issue. Our intent is to fill every minute of every hour of every day between now and when the House comes back and we re-engage in regular business.

Here's the crux of my issue, sir. If.... I'm not saying this happened. It's hypothetical, but I would ask you to take the hypothetical seriously. If the chair were to give an advance nod to the government on what time we might suspend over the course of the week, it gives the.... In addition to being a violation of our rights, which should stop it right there, let me explain where it's really problematic going forward in terms of the functioning of the committee, which is your responsibility.

If the government knows ahead of time that on Monday you're going to suspend at midnight, but we don't know that on the opposition side, that means the government has days ahead to know that they don't need to schedule anyone after midnight. Because they know the committee is going to suspend and they know what time we're going to re-engage in the morning, they can go ahead and say to everybody to get some sleep, get some rest, they don't need anybody.... You can plan that days ahead.

It's no big secret to know that the undertaking we're going through right now to staff this committee next week is a major undertaking. It's a little easier when you're government, because you have more members, and you have a lot more motivators, shall we say—we'll just leave it at that. For us, it's purely voluntary. There is nothing to be gained. You have to give up time in your riding with your constituents to come back and be at a committee that at some hours is a tree in the forest.

My question to you is as follows. In order to ensure that our privileges are not breached, to ensure that the chair is treating everyone the same, and to ensure that all the caucuses have the same information in terms of planning this political war that we're engaged in—a friendly civil war but a political war nonetheless—as we go forward, I would ask for one of two things.

One is that if you would indicate to us that, no, there won't be any more suspensions and that we will be sitting 24-7, then everyone can plan their business accordingly. Or, if it is your intention to be suspending, then we would like an assurance from you publicly that no government members—in fact, no one other than the clerk—would be aware of when you were intending to suspend prior to your doing it publicly without all of us knowing at the same time.

I'm asking, Chair, for one of the two: either declare that, no, it's going to be 24-7 from here on in, or from Sunday on, or Monday on, and that's the way it's going to be; or, if there's a sense that we're going to be rising, then give us an assurance from you publicly, as our trusted chair, that no one, other than the clerk, would know ahead of time when you plan to suspend, and if you are making plans going forward, that you would inform the opposition members at exactly the same time that you would be informing anyone else.

Sir, I present this in the most respectful way, but I think you can appreciate why I and my colleagues on the opposition benches would seek to have these assurances so that our rights can be protected.

I thank you for the opportunity to place this, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you.

Are you speaking to the same point, Mr. Richards?

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Yes. It's on the same point. I have some things to add.

Before I comment on that point, Mr. Chair, I would like to say, first of all—I have acknowledged this in the past, but it was later in the evening, I think, when I did so—that of all the people on this committee you have the toughest job in terms of the exercise we've been going through this week. You have to remain in the chair and are sort of strapped to the chair, really, and as someone who has done that job in different but similar types of circumstances, with daylong meetings and things like that, I understand that it can be difficult. I want to acknowledge before I say anything else that you've performed that duty admirably.

In regard to the substance of what Mr. Christopherson has just raised, I would certainly concur with what he has said. I would add to it, though, and in my mind, I think this is also about the rights of our constituents and of the groups that we will be meeting with, in addition to being about fairness to all the members of the committee and those who would probably be substitutes for members. For example, next week, some chambers of commerce have asked me to come and speak to them. They've sold tickets to people for them to come and hear me speak about the budget and items around it. If we have to make decisions not knowing whether we'll be here or not, we're affecting those constituents and those organizations. There will be many of those types of impacts taking place.

From my perspective, I would concur with what Mr. Christopherson has said, which is that it's always important that all members of Parliament on this committee have the same kind of notification as to when suspensions would be occurring or what the schedule is going to be going forward. I couldn't agree more. I also think it's important to consider fairness for those organizations as well.

Obviously, Mr. Chair, you would be in that boat as well. As the chair, it's more difficult for you to be a part of the hearings than it is for anyone else. You have a riding that's very far away from Ottawa. Mine is quite far, but you have a lot more travel to do than I have, so it's even more difficult for you. I would be quite certain that you.... I know how much your territory means to you, and I know that you would be intending to be there otherwise, if this committee were not meeting. You probably have who knows many meetings scheduled or set up, like the rest of us, and you might have to be cancelling such things as flights, meetings, and various things.

Obviously, this is something that at this point you must have considered, especially after last night, when the House leader was here and made it quite clear that she had no real intention of trying to work with the opposition parties. That was made quite clear. She basically said, carry on, we have no intention of working with you. This would indicate that we could be here for some time in this conversation that we're having. At least at that point, you had to have considered this and what the implications would be, if for no other reason than your own personal scheduling purposes.

It would be helpful to this committee if you were to share with us your thoughts on where we're going, because you clearly had to have those thoughts. If you haven't made a decision as to what is going to occur over the next couple of days, say, or the weekend and into the constituency week next week, obviously at some point you're going to have to make a decision about what you intend to do.

Can you either enlighten us as to what that decision is and what you see the schedule looking like or, if you can't do it at this moment, I think we should at least expect that you would share with us when you can provide us with that information? Mr. Christopherson laid out quite well why that is fair, reasonable, and important, in addition to the fact that it's also fair for those organizations, constituents, and people that we would have to leave hanging as to whether we can be there or not. I think it's a basic fairness issue. I know you're a fair man, and I'm sure you will provide us this information as soon as you can. If you can't give it to us now, could you please tell us when you would be providing that information to the committee?

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Ms. May.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

First of all, let me thank you, Mr. Chair, for giving me the ability to speak at this moment on this issue that is very critical for all members of Parliament.

I would very much appreciate it, as the committee goes forward, if all members, and particularly the government leader in the House, consider giving full membership to a representative both of the Bloc Québécois and of the Green Party. I think this would assist in the committee's work. It would ensure that all voices of members of Parliament.... We're not two classes of MPs in this place. We're all equal, but obviously there's a very different status for members of Parliament who belong to parties that have more than 12 MPs.

I won't go into great detail on the nature of those differences, but the essential difference doesn't exist at all, in that the voters in Saanich—Gulf Islands are equal to the voters of the Yukon, although it actually takes fewer Yukon voters to elect a great MP than it takes the voters of Saanich—Gulf Islands, because we are more populous. Other than that difference, our constituencies are equal and as MPs we are equal. When we're discussing the rules of this place, I think it's really important, as Scott's motion suggests, that there be a role for those members of caucuses that don't have representation at this committee.

I would recommend strongly that the role be a full membership. Certainly, we did that on the Special Committee on Electoral Reform, but it is not unprecedented. Indeed, there are many precedents for members of Parliament with fewer than 12 MPs in their caucus to be full members of committees, not just special committees but standing committees. It is not precedent setting. It's been done many times in the past. Given the importance of this issue and the high temperature that it has now attained, I think this is a way to cool things down and to work together well.

You have my word that as a full member of this committee, I will give it my all and will be extremely fair and non-partial and will work together with you to come up with rules that will work in the interests of Parliament, not any particular party.

I thank you for the chance to put these points forward, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Thank you, Ms. May.

On the point Mr. Christopherson raised, I think it's a fair point. To date, I've tried to be flexible and change depending on the situation, which is sort of an evolving situation. In fact, last night, I think I changed my mind three times after talking to Blake about when we would finally adjourn—

[An hon. member]

Suspend.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Yes, suspend.

It's a fair point about going forward, and I think that because next week is a long week I'm going to try to get back to people today, if I can. I haven't totally exactly decided, but I'll try to get back to people today so that everyone knows what the timing would be. Also, I'm not prepared to commit to 24-7 at the moment.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Good.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

I'm not sure my body can handle that.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

I'm on board for 24-7. Let me in on it and—

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Mr. Chair, thank you for that. It's appreciated. I had no doubt that you would seek to find a way that would be fair and would allow people to plan. I had no doubt about that. Also, we appreciate that it will be today.... That's very helpful.

In the meantime, would you have an indication as to what your plans are for suspension this evening? If you're not intending to go 24-7, what are your plans for suspending this evening and recommencing tomorrow morning, should we still be there at that point?

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

At the moment, I thought we were going to carry on in a way similar to where we were, and that it would not be an early night tonight but it would not be a late morning tomorrow morning. I'll figure out the specific timing of it. Is that okay? Really soon...?

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Well, if I might say so, Chair, there are two things.

I'm trying to frame this in a way that you don't take offence, because that's the last thing I want to do, but I do feel the need for you to at least, given the comments that I've made and the observations, even just say “of course” or something.... I would just like it to be said publicly, for my own assurance, that when you're making these deliberations, there is no special consultation or discussion with any members of any caucus if it's not with all the members of all the caucuses.

That would be one, and I hope you take that in the spirit I meant it. It's “belt and suspenders” for me and in no way a reflection on you, but given where we are right now, I'd just like to know, if you're going to take all this time to deliberate, that I have the assurance that there's no private input that the government gets to give you. At this stage, you're in a very precarious position. You still contain a Liberal membership card in your pocket, but we view you as being our honest broker. You're the only thing right now that defends our minority rights as they exist. I hope you'll understand that I don't see it as being over the top to ask for extra assurance that those rights are being protected in the procedure that you're following. I recognize that you could see it the wrong way. I hope you don't see it that way.

That's a rather definitive one, but there's another thing I would ask you. As you're having these deliberations.... I mean, this is a democracy. I've been a committee chair too, and I understand the residual rights and powers of a committee chair, but if there's all this deliberation going on in your heart and soul, can you maybe share with us what some of the guiding principles are that you're thinking of as you determine when we meet and when we don't? So far, you have the unilateral power to do that, and it might be helpful to us to understand what are the factors that you're taking into account.

I'll leave it at that, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

I don't plan to have any special consultations. A number of times when we have suspended, I've given the reason at the time of suspension and have said what my thoughts were.

I'm also open at any time when we're having our breaks, if people have thoughts.... Blake had a thought last night about something related to timing. If any members have thoughts on timing as we go on, please let me know so that I can take them into my consideration, informally....

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I assume I have that assurance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Yes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

I just said that.

Okay?

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm probably not as sharp as I'd like to think I am today, so I accept that you said it.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Larry Bagnell]

Okay.

Mr. Kmiec, we're back to you on debate on the amendment to Mr. Simms' motion.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.