But not for QP.
Evidence of meeting #55 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was opposition.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #55 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was opposition.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:55 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
I'm just looking at the clock and seeing the time.
Garnett, I'm going to be safe and call you Garnett, sorry.
Garnett has spent quite a bit of time today and last night and given the amount of refreshment involved, for a refreshing break or whatever it is he desires, could he cede the floor to me with unanimous consent and I can talk for a bit while he has a break?
2 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I would be open to a unanimous motion along the lines we discussed before, in which Mr. Simms would be able to make some substantive comments and then it would go back to me and it wouldn't impede the existing speakers list. I would be open to moving that.
2 p.m.
Some hon. members
Agreed.
2 p.m.
Liberal
2 p.m.
Conservative
2 p.m.
Liberal
Scott Simms Liberal Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
Okay, I'm going to respond in general to some of the stuff and add some of my own comments. It won't go particularly to Garnett's comments from the last little while.
I want to clear the air about a couple of things that have been said and some of the stuff in the media. It started early this morning with comments about the fact that a discussion paper had been released and that I had moved a motion a short period of time later that had a remarkable resemblance to just that. I could see that if I were in their shoes, I would do the same thing.
To clear the air, I've had several discussions with the House leader's office—her in particular, and her staff—over the past few months, especially since the take-note debate of October 6. Three days prior to her releasing the discussion paper, I had seen it, I had made my input to it, and it was released. At the same time, prior to its coming out, I also decided to do the motion, and we decided to put this in. I liked what she had said. I liked the general themes. As I said, I added my input and then drafted my own motion. I just want to put that to rest.
With some of the other stuff we've been talking about, let me go back to the beginning. The whole idea was to have this discussion paper so we could find ourselves in a position where we would have this debate. I understand that people don't like the timeline. I think we've had quite a bit of debate over the past while, from October 6, from all that we've said in the past little while—and it's been quite a bit. I thought that was a fantastic debate then, and I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that we have this report done by June. We can extend the hours, which is in my motion, as we see fit.
On some of the ideas I've put in the motion that the opposition has issues with, the biggest one, of course, is the lack of Friday sittings. In no way, shape, or form was the genesis of my problem with Friday the fact that we were working on Fridays. Look, I have a riding that's far away. I spend 10 to 15 hours a week in airports and airplanes to come to and fro. I work in my riding on Friday.
Again, as I said last night, I am not going to insinuate that anybody doesn't work in their riding. That's a non-starter, for all MPs—all 338 of us. My concern is when Scott Reid and others make the point that people show up to work on Friday and we should too. People don't show up to work for a half day; they show up for a full day. My problem is not about working on Friday; my problem is that Friday does not seem to me to be a productive day at all. There's a bit of productivity on Fridays, like some of the question period stuff, but not all of the ministers are there and the Prime Minister is not there—not just the current one, but other prime ministers too. That's always been the convention and practice.
I must say that I have enjoyed some of the debates on private members' bills that have taken place on Friday. That's really the only stuff I can recall. There's no committee work on Friday, and it's a shortened day. That's why I'm saying we have a choice. We have a choice here to have a full debate about what we do with Fridays. Do we take it and we...? If the opposition does not want to get rid of Fridays, then let's do the full day and make it a decent amount of work. If we're here, let's get it done. We spend long hours here. Let's get the work done and not pretend that Friday is out there as a half day that's not very productive.
I'll leave it at that. That's my point on that particular situation.
I'm very interested in the opposition's views. I notice now, as time goes on, that it's starting to come out, and I.... Listen, I enjoyed Scott Reid's submission. I enjoyed Garnett's submission. Even when he got into the Magna Carta, I thought to myself, that's not bad: “He's new and he's waxing on about the Magna Carta.” I must say, it was nothing short of impressive.
And, of course, there's Mr. Christopherson, whom I have known for quite some time. How do I say this? I understand his angst about all of this, but I just want him and others to know that despite the insinuation that we don't want this consensus, in fact, we do. We want to have it. I want to have this debate about all of these things, and I wanted to start with this discussion paper to get things going as ideas. I've said it before, and I say it again.
Scott Reid brought up some points about the omnibus legislation, in asking how the Speaker can do what is discussed here in the paper. I think he has a valid point, and I think we can do this again. We can have this debate, but in no way, shape, or form would I say with a straight face to the opposition, “You shouldn't be doing this filibuster.” That would be disingenuous—no offence to you—to the greatest extent. I filibustered. I was there. I get that.
I hope that at some point soon we can come to a resolution by which we can embark on this, even though, in a way, we already have. I am enjoying it, and I'm listening. I'm not just sitting here waiting for you to expire at the end of the day and run out of speakers. I hope this can come to a vote. I know we're on the amendment right now, not on the main motion. I hope we can work something out.
I see that Garnett seems to be....
Are you ready, sir?
2:05 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Could I respond with a much shorter version of an intervention? It's just a couple of lines.
2:05 p.m.
Liberal
March 21st, 2017 / 2:05 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I was just going to say that I understand that Mr. Simms is trying to present this as reasonable. It can be made reasonable. I think we could get there, but not while you are refusing to relinquish this idea that the government itself has the unilateral right to change the rules. That is a non-starter.
First of all, that doesn't exist right now. There were a few times, one-off changes in history, when there was a majority vote by the government of the day. Fair enough, but in terms of any of the reviews, unless somebody shows me something to the contrary, I have not seen a single report suggesting that the government maintains or has that unilateral right. They never passed any of those reports that way.
Scotty, you and I have a great history and a lot of respect for each other, so we can talk this way. Everything you say has an element of common sense to it. I accept that, but it doesn't work when you're superimposing on it your desire to grab this power, which you do not have right now.
I have to tell you that there's no way any of us on the opposition benches are going to agree that 39% of the vote means that you get 100% of the power to unilaterally change the rules of the Standing Orders of the House. That's how we make laws. That part of it makes it impossible.
If you and your colleagues can find a way to get off that dime, then there may be some room for us to talk about some of the other things, but as long as you remain resolute in opposition to this motion or any compromise that might be found if we had those discussions.... You know what I'm talking about. In the absence of that, everything you're saying is negated by your wanting the unilateral—and it is the right word—right to impose your majority, which you got with less than 40% of the vote, to directly change the rules on how we make laws, in the face of opposition from other members. My friend, that is now and will remain a non-starter and a deal breaker.
If we can find our way past that, we at least have a fighting chance to get toward the kind of environment you're talking about that reflects how we normally do things.
Thank you very much for the opportunity.
2:05 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Thank you for those interventions. It certainly provides some food for thought.
Let's go over the key points from the exchanges.
Mr. Simms spoke a little about the question of what level of coordination might have occurred between him and the House leader with respect to the writing of this motion and how this discussion proceeded. I have no way of knowing who said what to whom and I have no reason to principally doubt the broad direction of Mr. Simms' account; however, I got the impression that what happened yesterday was that, rightly or wrongly, members of the government who were here in this committee were starting to see the value of the arguments that we were making, not just with respect to some of the discussion around what is actually contained in the Standing Orders but also with respect to the way in which we operate and the way in which this study would operate and the importance of the amending conditions.
Therefore, we did suspend, and I think initially it was envisioned to be for 20 minutes, but it stretched out to being more than an hour. There were conversations that took place, and in the end, the feedback that members received—from where, who knows, but I might speculate—was that actually we have to do this because the government is not prepared to take on board the amendment that we had proposed. It may well have been something where members of this committee on the government side actually thought that yes, this is a good conversation or study to have, but listening to the arguments made by opposition members, I think many of them have become convinced of something that others within their party have not yet been convinced of, which is that it is necessary and right that we proceed with the discussion of this issue in the context of the amendment that has been put forward.
It's all well and good for members of the government to say that this is a study which they are interested in and would like to have, but we have yet to get clarity on the reasons that members of the government are opposed to our amendment. Perhaps at some point they will take the opportunity to actually lay that out, because although those haven't been long interventions, I think there have been opportunities for most of the members of the government seated here to make interventions at some point to express their views on the subject.
I have tried to delineate between questions of process and questions of substance with respect to the Standing Orders and make the argument that, given the importance of the substance and given the fact that all of the substance of what we do as members of Parliament on behalf of our constituents depends on the rules that shape how we operate, we need to have a discussion of those rules in a way that is fair, that is inclusive, to use the language of the discussion paper, and that represents all the voices that members of Parliament bring to the table from different parties.
Therefore, that process discussion needs to precede the substance discussion, and I think Mr. Simms should take that on board in the context of his motion. I think our amendment would strengthen his motion and strengthen the study that would take place in the context of it.
This is more the question with respect to whose idea this was, not just about the motion itself, but also about the strategy that the government has pursued up to this point, which is to refuse to support the very legitimate and important amendment that we've put forward.
Mr. Simms spoke about this question of Fridays, responding to some of the comments that I and others on this side of the table, both opposition parties, have made with respect to Friday sittings. It is striking that he describes Friday as not being that productive a day. We've had these comments made by government members, by the government House leader, that for moments show the mentality that exists there, which is that the principal way productivity is measured is by the extent to which we are moving forward with the process of government legislation.
It is a fact that Fridays, not compared to Wednesdays, but compared to Mondays, Tuesdays, and Thursdays, have a reduced number of hours set aside for government orders, but we have a full question period and we have a full period for discussion of private members' business.
Mr. Simms has served in opposition and so he would, I think, particularly understand the importance of that Friday question period. Generally speaking, it's a day on which some members of Parliament need to be in their ridings and elsewhere, and it provides a particular opportunity for members of Parliament who may be less active during question period in other times of the week to participate in the discussion and pose questions that may particularly reflect personal and local concerns. That is often what we see taking place in Friday's question period, and it is a little different from what happens at other times.
We're also more likely to see parliamentary secretaries as opposed to ministers answering the questions. This has certain advantages as well in the engagement of—of course, parliamentary secretaries are not there to speak on their own behalf; they are there to speak on behalf of the government, but it still creates.... In some sense perhaps it's an audition, to paraphrase the Prime Minister, for those in cabinet and those working hard to join it, but it is an important opportunity for people like Mr. Graham who are eager to get into cabinet to show off their talents.
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
2:10 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
I think this speaks to the government's view of Fridays when they talk about the limited productivity on a day when there is less time for government orders, but still important time available for other aspects of discussion.
To more generally respond to the points that Mr. Simms raised in his intervention, we're not disagreeing with the value of having a discussion of the Standing Orders. In the context of this amendment, we are raising something quite specific, which is that there needs to be an understanding as we go forward about how this study will unfold and the way in which recommendations will be developed and whether or not they will respect the position of all members of Parliament in that discussion. That is the question we're evaluating in this amendment.
Certainly the points with respect to the Standing Orders, with respect to the discussion paper, that we have discussed have a resonance in how they illustrate the importance of the engagement of all parties, of all members, in that discussion, the way in which they inform that substructure of our democracy, which is necessary for a strong superstructure of policy development.
This is where I disagree with Mr. Simms and likely other members of the government caucus. It is not on every point, but it is with respect to their approach to the amendment and with respect to their intended way of proceeding with this issue.
Before we went down the road of that discussion....
Maybe I'll just ask members again, is there unanimous consent to televise at this point? Has anyone had a change of heart?
2:20 p.m.
Liberal
David Graham Liberal Laurentides—Labelle, QC
I'm very happy to have that motion after we get through this motion.
