Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 1st, 2023

[Shawn Tupper]

It's absolutely fair to say it's not new. I think that—

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

How long? How long would you say national security...?

[Shawn Tupper]

As long as governments have opposed one another, I would offer.

The real shift, though, has occurred in the last five or six years. The more typical activities of espionage—of suitcases full of money, of coercion—are things that we've known about for a very long time, but over the last number of years, through the use of social media and the ability to invoke cyber-attacks against states, it has really escalated our awareness and drawn our attention to the area, simply because it's more pervasive and more aggressive, and because the potential for damage to our democracy is that much more serious.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Social media has been around for a while. When did it first get onto your agenda?

[Shawn Tupper]

Largely it was post the 2016 American election, when we started to understand how foreign countries were trying to influence that election. It was a real learning point for us to understand, particularly, what the Russians have been doing. We have paid more attention since that time to really understand and make sure that we have awareness of what's going on in Canada and the kinds of activities that are centred on the Canadian state.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I want to talk about some allegations that I've been able to read from Walied Soliman, who has said publicly that he served as the Conservative Party's representative on the SITE task force in 2021. He said allegations of foreign interference were brought forward as a part of the SITE task force engagement with political parties but were not taken seriously. How do you respond to that?

[Jody Thomas]

Again, I was not on the task force or the panel at that time. We have very clear documentation from that representative of that political party, asking questions and stating concerns, along with a very detailed response back to him on or about October 22, 2021, indicating that the allegations were being taken very seriously but that we did not see evidence in the intelligence to support the claims he presented.

Now, there have been claims since then, and we're reviewing that information to understand the full picture as broadly as possible, but he was given a very thorough response at the time.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Ms. Thomas, is there anything to suggest that the facts have changed since that original assessment was made in response to his claims?

[Jody Thomas]

There is nothing that suggests that the outcome and the ridings he was concerned about were affected by attempts at interference by foreign actors. There certainly were attempts. We haven't denied that, but intelligence evolves and we get more information. We obtain more information. There are more sources that become available, and we have to continuously assess the picture and our understanding of any given situation.

Information has come to light since that response was given, and I've asked that we just review it and be able to understand and answer questions about it.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you.

Were there other allegations brought forward by other parties at the time?

[Jody Thomas]

There were none that I'm aware of, no.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you very much.

Welcome to the committee, Ms. Normandin.

You have six minutes. Go ahead.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Thomas, you said you weren't in your job when the allegations about China assisting a Liberal candidate were brought to the Prime Minister's attention. You are in the position now, though, and the Prime Minister is telling us that it's not CSIS's role to say who can and can't be a candidate.

The government is brushing off information that reportedly came from CSIS about a potentially problematic nomination, suggesting that it's not all that important.

You are the national security and intelligence advisor, so what message do you think it sends to those who may want to interfere in our democracy and skew things in a particular party's favour?

[Jody Thomas]

I would suggest that's not the conclusion I would draw. The conclusion I would draw is that CSIS provides information. It builds an intelligence picture. It investigates and provides information to decision-makers, up to and including the Prime Minister.

I agree with the Prime Minister. CSIS does not determine who should be a candidate and who should not.

It provides for all parties—where there is a concern and if there is a concern—information that parties then use in their nomination process for their own purpose, according to their own rules, regulations and bylaws that govern that party. CSIS provides information to decision-makers.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

All right. Thank you.

The Prime Minister hasn't confirmed that he was briefed about the allegations by CSIS. He hasn't denied or confirmed it. Clearly, there are people at CSIS who had this information and leaked it to the media, putting their careers at risk or worse.

What message does that send about national security and intelligence? It shows that the Prime Minister didn't take the matter seriously to start with, doesn't it?

[Jody Thomas]

This is a very important question.

We in the public service are the guardians of protected information. We share information with those people who have security clearances or who are in roles of authority in which they can make decisions. The unlawful sharing of information and the inappropriate sharing of information, I believe, jeopardize our national security and institutions. They also put people—both employees and subjects of investigations—at unnecessary risk. That's very concerning. I'm not going to speculate on the motivations.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

We are talking about a pretty critical issue. In order for this story to come out, the information had to be leaked to the media. Doesn't that warrant a broader examination, an independent, public inquiry to probe all the allegations of interference reported by the media?

[Jody Thomas]

Inquiries like this one are very important in terms of understanding what happened, so I applaud that you are doing this. I think it is important to talk about foreign interference and the electoral process.

A public inquiry will have the same limitations that this committee does in that we cannot talk about national security information in a public forum. The National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians was created for situations like this, so that we can be absolutely transparent with them and they can see secret, top secret and protected information that was used to make decisions and inform decision-makers.

If an inquiry were to happen, I would recommend that it be done through a body like that, because an open forum is going to have the same limitations that this body does.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

This could give the impression that there was something of a panic about the information that was leaked. Individuals who wanted to expose alleged interference in our elections were labelled racists. What do you make of that? Don't you think it makes people cynical, which is exactly what public inquiries, policies and the elections task force are supposed to address? Doesn't it fuel that cynicism?

[Jody Thomas]

It's important to note that members of the Chinese community came out yesterday and said it is important to talk about this. It is important that Canadians from diaspora communities and from countries that participate in foreign interference feel that their health and well-being as Canadians is being protected. A very essential element of Canada as a multicultural nation is having Canadians feel equal and protected by the national security community. I think that is why the work being done on foreign interference is so important, because it does ultimately protect citizens.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you, Ms. Normandin.

Mr. Julian, you have up to six minutes. Go ahead.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to start off by providing a notice of motion. This motion was circulated to committee yesterday with a 48-hour notice period. I would be moving it tomorrow.

The notice of motion reads as follows:

That the committee report to the House that it calls on the Government of Canada to launch a national public inquiry into allegations of foreign interference in Canada's democratic system, including but not limited to allegations of interference in general elections by foreign governments;

That this inquiry be granted all necessary powers to call witnesses from the government and from political parties, including but not limited to ministers, former ministers, chiefs of staff to the Prime Minister and to the leader of the official opposition during the 2019 and 2021 federal election campaigns and national campaign directors for the 2019 and 2021 federal election campaigns of the Liberal Party of Canada and the Conservative Party of Canada;

And that this inquiry have the power to order and review all documents it deems necessary for this work, including documents which are related to national security.

I will be moving that formally tomorrow. Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to go to our witnesses.

Madam Thomas, you stated that you weren't in the position when the events that have been described happened, but you have, in your position, I'm sure, been able to read the articles written by Robert Fife and Steven Chase, and have seen the reports by Sam Cooper, of course, on Global News. Will you acknowledge that the allegations that are contained in those reports are factual?

[Jody Thomas]

I'm not going to comment on information that was inappropriately obtained.

The concept and the problem and the severity of foreign interference are well documented. That there were attempts at foreign interference in the 2019 and 2021 federal elections has been documented and is quite transparent in the reports done by Jim Judd and Morris Rosenberg, so I acknowledge that foreign interference has been attempted.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

If those allegations are correct, this constitutes criminal violations of the Elections Act, as we saw with the in-and-out scandal back under the Harper government. Dean Del Mastro, of course, in that case, was a Conservative MP.

Does your evaluation include criminal activity?

What do you do in the face of alleged violations of the Canada Elections Act that constitute criminal offences?