Procedure and House Affairs Committee on March 1st, 2023

[Shawn Tupper]

The RCMP form a critical part of the team of people who assess activities during elections. They were aware of the information that was brought forward. They have looked at that information and have concluded that they will not pursue a criminal investigation.

I know that my colleagues from the RCMP will be appearing before this committee, so perhaps more detail on that can be pursued with them.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Do you refer any allegations of violations of the Elections Act to the commissioner of elections?

[Shawn Tupper]

The commissioner of elections is an independent officer and indeed would pursue in their own right the ability to look at allegations as they're brought forward.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

That's not my question. If there were criminal activity or allegations of criminal activity, the commissioner of elections isn't necessarily going to be aware of that.

Is that part of what you do in a case where these allegations come forward?

[Shawn Tupper]

Indeed, the RCMP would pursue those portions of allegations that fall under the criminal law. There would be a conversation between the RCMP and Elections Act officials or commission officials to look at the corresponding violations that may occur under the act that they would be responsible for.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

That is something that you do: When these allegations arise, you do an investigation yourselves and you potentially also refer it to the commissioner of elections for possible investigation.

[Shawn Tupper]

Yes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I'll go back to Ms. Thomas.

How do you evaluate the extent of foreign interference? I'm speaking specifically in this case both of the Chinese government but also of the Russian government and Russian actors that have been playing a major role, as we know, in disrupting democracies, including the United Kingdom and the United States.

[Jody Thomas]

That's a very important question.

We rely on the national security agencies, along with the Canadian Forces intelligence command, the foreign intelligence unit at Global Affairs Canada and allies to help us assess the depth and persistence of foreign interference in Canada.

As we said, it's not new and it's not restricted to or targeted at Canada in particular.

We use a number of tools and tradecraft, which certainly we're not going to discuss publicly. The collection of intelligence and the analysis of that intelligence in its totality—not the individual pieces—and understanding the veracity of it—whether or not it's reliable and whether there is conflicting or contradictory information—help build that picture.

Certainly the activities of proxies play a role in that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

We will now continue with five minutes for Mr. Cooper, followed by Mr. Turnbull.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I'll be splitting my time with Mr. Berthold.

Ms. Thomas, you said in answer to a question posed by Mr. Julian that you would not be commenting on what you claimed were reports of information that were inappropriately obtained. I would remind you of section 15 of the Security of Information Act, which provides that:

15 (1) No person is guilty of an offence under section 13 or 14 if the person establishes that he or she acted in the public interest.

Are you saying that it was not in the public interest for the public to know about Beijing's interference in our elections in 2019 and 2021? Is that what you are telling this committee?

[Jody Thomas]

That is not even close to what I'm telling this committee.

We have talked publicly about foreign interference attempts. The director of CSIS has. The panel of five did. Jim Judd did. Morris Rosenberg did, but—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Would you, Ms. Thomas, agree that it is important to shine a light on issues of foreign interference?

[Jody Thomas]

I would agree absolutely, Madam Chair, that it's important to shine a light on matters of foreign interference.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much. I have limited time.

Mr. Berthold.

[Jody Thomas]

I think it's important to do it in a responsible manner.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm just going to pause the clock and give a friendly reminder. Perhaps, since it is a constituency week, we're not remembering that when multiple people are speaking on a microphone, it's difficult for interpretation, so as we are having a very important conversation, we need to make sure that when questions are posed, time is provided for answers so that we can get this information.

I will continue being lenient with some time, to make sure have that time.

Mr. Berthold, go ahead.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Thomas, you said repeatedly that you weren't in your position in 2019 or in 2021, because you weren't appointed until recently.

Did you get a transition binder from your predecessor?

[Jody Thomas]

No, in fact I did not receive a transition book from my predecessor. However, I had individual meetings with all the heads of the security agencies and my colleague deputy ministers.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Since you've been in the job, were you made aware of any of the information reported by Global News's Sam Cooper on November 7, 2022 before it came out?

[Jody Thomas]

I've read a significant amount of intelligence about foreign interference in Canada, and some of the information I've read is dated 2018 or 2019.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Did you share that information with the Prime Minister directly?

[Jody Thomas]

I did not share information with the Prime Minister independently on incidents that occurred before I was here in this job.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Have you discussed those incidents with the Prime Minister since you've been in the job?

[Jody Thomas]

I'm not going to reveal what I have discussed with the Prime Minister. We have had very detailed and thorough conversations on foreign interference.