Human Resources Committee on May 15th, 2020

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

So the government doesn't have to follow the words that are approved by Parliament. Are you saying the government ignored the law? Did the government give you direction to ignore the law?

[Benoît Robidoux]

We didn't ignore the law. We followed the law that was approved by Parliament for the CERB, and we followed the integrity framework that was presented for that. We're doing exactly what the law allows us to do. We have adapted—

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I'm sorry, sir, but the CERB act says very clearly—

[Benoît Robidoux]

We have—

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

It says very clearly that—

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

I have a point of order.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

—someone has to have $5,000 in income—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Excuse me, Mr. Albas. We have a point of order.

Go ahead, Mr. Vaughan.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

This is really objectionable, accusing a senior member of the public service of deliberately breaking the law.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

That's not a point of order.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

I ask that the chair rule this line of questioning out of order since it is a direct attack on the integrity of the individual and he is unable to defend himself because the member opposite is continually interrupting him.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Vaughan, I respectfully disagree. This matter is relevant.

Mr. Albas, out of courtesy to the witness, you should allow him to respond, but your questions are not inappropriate. Please go ahead.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll try my best.

Sir, you've said here today that you're following a memo and not what is laid out in the CERB act.

Let me ask you this question. If a senior who is, let's say, age 75 phones in or applies online and has no T4 income or any other income for the 2019 year, would they be red-flagged and would they be processed under the current memo?

[Benoît Robidoux]

I will go back to your earlier question. You said—

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

You know what? Maybe that line of questioning....

Mr. Robidoux, could you please answer my question?

[Benoît Robidoux]

You said that I said we were following a memo and not following the law in doing the integrity process. We are following exactly what is written in the law when it comes to integrity with the CERB, number one.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

I'd like you to answer my question on a retiree aged 75 who phones or applies online and has zero employment income that would qualify for the CERB. Would they be red-flagged right now and would they be processed right now under this memo?

[Benoît Robidoux]

We have no income data from when they applied in the system. CERB doesn't have that set up. That type of integrity will happen at the back end of the process at the end of the year, when we'll have the data. We'll then claw back the benefit if they didn't have the $5,000. This will happen; it just will not happen now.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

If someone phones in right now and is aged 75.... First of all, do you treat someone of a particular age differently? Are any questions asked? I heard from someone that people are actually asked further questions if they are 75 or older. Can you confirm that?

[Benoît Robidoux]

Cliff Groen will answer that specific question.

[Cliff C. Groen]

Thank you very much.

First of all, I'd like to be clear that there is a requirement for any applicant to complete an attestation in which it is very clear what the requirements are, and they are fully aligned with what is in the legislation. In order to apply for and receive the benefit, any individual has to complete that attestation, in which they are confirming they meet all of the eligibility criteria, including income they would have received, their age—

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC]

Can I again ask you to answer the question, though, about the senior—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Mr. Albas. Thank you, Mr. Groen. We are out of time.

Next we have Ms. Young for five minutes, please.

[Kate Young, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to start by commending our public servants for the amazing job that they've been doing over the past two months. It's exceptional, considering the circumstances and considering that we're all trying to work under stressful conditions, so I do want to make sure that they are commended.

I do have questions about the registered retirement income funds. The government announced that it was reducing the required minimum withdrawals from RRIFs by 25% for this year. Do we know how many seniors you estimate would be taking advantage of this new measure? Is there any idea at this point?

[Benoît Robidoux]

This is a program that is managed by the Department of Finance, and I have to say that I have no data about that. It probably will be a bit difficult even for them to answer that question, because seniors could have all year to exploit that, to kind of take the opportunity for that 25%.

To be clear, there are rules about the minimum that you need to withdraw from your RRIF, but this could happen on the last day of the year. Right now, it's hard to know how this is affecting seniors, because they could manage their financial situation the way they need or prefer. Until the end of the year, it will be very difficult to answer that question, I believe, even for officials from the Department of Finance.