Human Resources Committee on March 23rd, 2026

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We will begin the second hour. I'm going to remind members that you have the option of choosing to participate in the official language of your choice. All witnesses for this hour are appearing virtually.

To those of you appearing virtually, please click on the globe icon at the bottom of your Surface to choose the official language of your choice. If there is an interruption, please get my attention by raising your hand, and we'll suspend while it is corrected.

Rachel and Robert Samulack, I'm going to have you wait until last because the technicians are doing a sound verification with you.

I'll begin with Les Perséides - Soutien au deuil périnatal. We have Janie Lapointe Tremblay, executive director, appearing by video conference. From Pregnancy, Infant & Child Loss Support Centre, we are joined by Danyelle Kaluski, co-founder and chief executive officer. As I indicated, we also have both Rachel and Robert Samulack.

Ms. Kaluski, are you ready to begin with your five-minute opening statement?

[Danyelle Kaluski, Co-Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Pregnancy, Infant & Child Loss Support Centre]

Yes.

Thank you, Chair and committee, for the honour of appearing before you today. My name is Danyelle Kaluski, she/her, and I am the co-founder and CEO of the Pregnancy & Infant Loss Support Centre in Calgary, Alberta.

I am also a bereaved parent. Fourteen years ago, I experienced a stillbirth, and in the midst of that loss, in the fog of the grief, shock and devastation, one of my first thoughts was, what happens to my leave? What happens now?

I consider myself fortunate. Because my loss was a stillbirth, I was covered under EI's maternity benefits. I was able to confirm easily that I had 17 weeks of leave, yet it was not nearly long enough. At the time, it provided me some comfort, but I will never forget that moment of uncertainty, the fear that, on top of everything I was carrying, I might also have to fight for the time I needed to grieve my child. Not every parent has this protection, and that is what this bill closes—that gap.

Over the past seven years, the organization I co-founded has supported more than 20,000 families across Canada. We walk alongside families experiencing miscarriage, stillbirth, NICU loss, SIDS and infant death. We see this every day. I could tell you one story, but, in truth, I could tell you thousands—of parents sitting in NICUs, waiting, while their babies fight for their lives; of families waking up to a silence that was never supposed to be there.

These families are in profound trauma. They are not sleeping. They are planning a funeral instead of planning a first birthday. Grief in those early weeks is not background noise. It is all-consuming. It affects the ability to think, to function, to get through a day. This is not a personal weakness. This is the reality of grief, yet under the current law, when a child dies during a parental leave, the leave ends. Parents are required to file a new claim, submit reports and prove eligibility, or return to work before they are anywhere near ready. A parent who has just buried their baby is being asked to navigate government paperwork. This is trauma layered on trauma, and it causes real, lasting harm.

This bill does something simple and deeply humane. It says, “You don't need to prove anything. Your leave continues. Your benefits continue. No new claim. No report. No call to Service Canada in the depths of grief.” It removes an administrative burden from people who have nothing left to give. This bill costs the government very little, but for families, it changes everything.

I'm here on behalf of families we have supported and on behalf of parents who are grieving right now somewhere in Canada. They're wondering how they're going to survive this. When a child dies, parenting doesn't stop. They're still parents, still loving, still grieving, yet under the current system, the moment that child dies, the law no longer sees them as a parent. It is a wound on top of that loss. This bill starts the change. It says, “You are still a parent, and we will treat you like one.”

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Kaluski.

Ms. Lapointe Tremblay, you have the floor.

[Janie Lapointe Tremblay, Executive Director, Les Perséides, soutien au deuil périnatal]

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, I'm very honoured to be with you today.

My name is Janie Tremblay. I am the executive director of Les Perséides perinatal bereavement support, a Quebec City organization that has specialized in family psychosocial support and professional training for over a decade.

I have personally been involved with the organization for five years, as I myself lost a baby at 23 weeks of pregnancy. I was entitled to 18 weeks of benefits from the Quebec Parental Insurance Plan, or QPIP, but I needed to take more time to get back on my feet, since I was unable to return to work.

Today, I would like to draw your attention to the voices of the hundreds of families who share deeply painful stories with us and who, in addition to grieving, face administrative barriers. Ms. Meunier's and Ms. Desbiens's work clearly shows this, and that's what we're seeing on the ground.

The psychological distress after the loss of a child is deep and intense. Our team recently supported a mother with suicidal ideation, self-harm and extreme anger towards the health care system. She was unable to return to work.

We also see isolated mothers who spend their days looking at pictures of their babies and fathers whose suffering is invisible and who numb their own grief to provide for their families. We see the impact on siblings as parents try to take care of their children despite having almost no energy.

Let me put a few faces to the realities that I'm telling you about.

Christina lost her little Félix aged 35 days and then Elliot two years later at 19 weeks of pregnancy. To this day, she is still living with diagnosed post-traumatic stress and needs to be medicated in order to negotiate her daily life. She is engaged in ongoing psychological counselling. After Félix died, she was entitled to only two weeks of benefits. Quebec parental leave recognizes only the physical, non-psychological aspects of the ordeal.

Her spouse had to go back to work on the Monday. Their baby had died on the Saturday. He was entitled to nothing. He had to claim illness. Fortunately, he had good insurance.

Another family received no help at all. A father was denied a work stoppage because he wasn't the one who carried the child. Their baby was stillborn at 38 weeks. Another one told us: “I have to throw my grief in the garbage. I'll collapse when the dust settles.”

A few days after a stillbirth, a family received the baby's family allowance and health insurance card. They had to return them while dealing with the trauma of the forms and the coroner's inquest.

Then there is the family of little Simon, who died aged 11 months. A godmother had to launch a GoFundMe drive so she could get a breather. In 2026, parents should not have to rely on charity to grieve.

Our current system is based on luck, the employer, insurance and online generosity.

This bill is a humane and necessary step forward. Ending the administrative burden is an act of basic dignity. In addition, the act covers both parents, since both of them have lost a child.

With all due respect to this work, I have to tell you that a large number of bereaved families are still being neglected. In our organization, we support all forms of grief, whether due to miscarriage, stillbirth, medical termination of pregnancy or other. Thousands of families remain without adequate protection, and we feel that their distress is very real.

I urge you to initiate this very important discussion.

I also suggest you read the brief submitted by the Table de concertation nationale sur le deuil périnatal in January. We presented it to the Quebec finance minister. The brief contains recommendations that are simple and inexpensive.

I would also like to talk to you about investment because, like you, I am concerned about the sound use of public funds. Every parent who is not allowed to grieve means a vulnerable worker, a collapsing family and a health care system that absorbs years of untreated distress. Prevention always costs less than a cure.

If Canada leads the way, the provinces will follow. Our organization will continue to support, educate and train, but we have no leverage on the factors that force an early return to work. Committee members, you have that power. Perinatal bereavement is a family issue, but it's also a societal issue. What is the price of giving families time to recover with dignity?

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak on behalf of those affected by your decisions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Lapointe Tremblay.

I understand that the sound issues have been corrected. We will begin with Rachel Samulack.

Rachel, I believe you and Robert are splitting your time.

Ms. Samulack, you can begin.

[Robert Samulack, Registered Nurse, As an Individual]

I am going to begin. My name is Rob Samulack and today I'm with my wife, Rachel. We were planning to come in person, but she was sick. We're speaking virtually.

We're here today to speak in favour of Bill C-222 and the continuation of parental leave benefits following the death of a child.

Thank you for the invitation to speak to you.

In February 2016, we went to our routine 20-week ultrasound for our second son, Aaron. At this time, he was diagnosed with bilateral renal agenesis, which means that he did not have any kidneys and therefore did not produce any amniotic fluid after about 14 weeks' gestation. This meant that his lungs would not develop properly and he would not live long after birth.

Rachel and I decided to continue with the pregnancy. She was working for the federal government, and I was in nursing school. Towards the end of this pregnancy, I had to complete a maternity clinical placement.

We're very privileged and lucky in Ottawa to have Roger Neilson house, and we sought support there through the perinatal hospice program. Aaron was born on June 19, 2016, and lived for 100 minutes after birth. Rachel still had her 17-week maternity leave at this time, and I had just started my school summer break.

Go ahead, Rachel.

[Rachel Samulack, As an Individual]

Hello. Thank you again for giving us this time and opportunity to speak to you.

I'm a public servant and, as Rob mentioned, I continued working during my pregnancy after Aaron's diagnosis, in a role that dealt with very difficult subject matter while parenting a toddler. After Aaron's passing, I returned to work after my 17-week maternity leave ended. I was ineligible for parental leave because my baby had died. I had to provide Aaron's death certificate upon my return to work. I was also not given bereavement leave at this time because I was on maternity leave when he passed away. I was told that I was not allowed to take my bereavement leave.

After my maternity leave ended, I returned to work, Rob started his fall semester of nursing school and our two-year-old started day care. Employment insurance benefits were never mentioned as an option for me. I couldn't cope with working full time, and I returned to work at 80%. This meant taking a pay cut and being the sole income for our family. If I had been able to take parental leave during this time, the healing process would have been much easier, and I would not have been penalized financially for the loss of our child.

The return to work after the loss of a child is extremely difficult. People are unsure of how to approach you. Some colleagues were unaware of our loss and asked why I was back so soon from my maternity leave, which left me in the position of having to explain the story to them.

To compound matters, unknown to us someone at the hospital had checked a box that meant we would automatically receive the Canada child benefit for Aaron. In June 2020, I noticed that Aaron's name was listed on the back of the statement. We had unknowingly incurred $14,000 in debt to the government, which was paid back by clawing back the CCB benefit for the next several years from our living children. Rectifying the situation meant that I had to call the Canada Revenue Agency numerous times and was forced to retell the story of our loss to numerous service agents, both retraumatizing me and causing vicarious trauma to them. They also did not seem trained in this type of loss or in what to say after I had to tell our story.

Aaron's life was not in vain. When he was born, he was surrounded by love for his entire life, and he passed away painlessly in our arms. To process our grief, we founded the Butterfly Run Ottawa to raise awareness for pregnancy and infant loss, as well as funds for Roger Neilson house. In the last nine years, it has raised over $600,000 for the perinatal programs at Roger Neilson house.

After two years, we successfully transitioned leadership to others and were able to continue the next chapter of our lives. We worked with MP Blake Richards, Sarah and Lee Cormier and others to get motion 110 passed.

Again, I know that it's been mentioned already, but thank you, Blake, for all of your help and everything you've done to support parents. It has been truly appreciated.

In 2018, we went on to have another healthy son, Matthias, and Rob graduated from nursing school in 2019.

In conclusion, we encourage you to support Bill C-222 and to ensure the wording of the bill includes parents in situations like ours so that they can access full parental leave benefits after the loss of their child. This is something that is a small change. It's a small procedural change, but it's something that will make an impact on thousands of lives going forward.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Rachel and Robert, for your testimony.

We'll begin the first round of six minutes with Mr. Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

Thank you to each of you. Some of you I know but haven't seen in a while, and some of you I'm just meeting for the first time. In all cases, I know it's not easy to share your personal experiences like this. I want to thank you all for your courage in doing that and the extra purpose you give to the lives of your children by helping them, through your voices, to make a difference in the way that we're making this difference with this bill and the other work that's been done. You all spoke so well about the impacts the current policies have, whether it be the leave or whether it be the heartless bureaucracies you deal with.

Rob and Rachel, you in particular laid out a number of different things you had to deal with. I think anyone in the room who's a parent and who sits here and imagines being in that circumstance.... There aren't words for it. There just aren't words for it. Thank you for sharing that because I think it makes a difference in terms of knowing what we have to do, going forward.

I want to give each of you the chance to add to what you've already spoken about. In every case, you've all done work to try to help others who've been through the same things you've been through. You can speak from your own experience, but you can also speak from the experiences of others you've encountered and worked with and supported. What kind of difference will this change make for people who are experiencing this grief? What difference will having a little extra time to grieve, and having some of these heartless processes fixed, make for someone going through what you've been through?

Maybe we can go in the same order as your opening statements, to make it easy, and give each of you a chance to answer that question.

[Danyelle Kaluski]

Thank you. That's a great question.

I would say right off the bat that nobody plans for the death of a child and nobody talks about the amount of cost there is. There's the cost of the funeral. There's the cost of the mental health support. For me, there was the cost of extra child care, because I couldn't parent. I was trying to parent a seven-year-old and I couldn't.

I see this all the time. A family I'm working with right now is in such deep grief they cannot work. All their benefits have been removed from them. We provide no-cost mental health support. They are leaning into that so heavily, because that's all they have.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

Go ahead, Madame Lapointe Tremblay.

[Janie Lapointe Tremblay]

As I see it, Bill C‑222 is the first step toward recognition by the government that perinatal grief does actually exist. I think it's important to name it.

I'll tell you a bit about our experience on the ground. Seldom has a parent who reached out to us said that they were ready to go back to work. Many parents who rush back to work are devastated and feel as though they are stealing their employer's time, because even though they are at work, their mind is somewhere else. They don't have time to grieve, and in many cases, the father goes back to work very soon after the loss. He feels helpless, because he has to support his family, and incredibly guilty for leaving his partner and the rest of the family alone to deal with everything that comes with the loss.

We are fortunate that we can provide free support to families. Last year, more than 170 families received individual and couple support free of charge, not including all the other parents who attended workshops.

Recognizing that what they are going through is really grief is a huge change. That is important. I also want to say how important it is to consider the training needs of the professionals parents come into contact with along the way. It's important not to disregard that either. When we meet with parents who reach out to us, parents who were denied paternity leave by family doctors because they didn't recognize this loss, we see the terrible toll it takes on families, what they go through.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Airdrie—Cochrane, AB]

Rob and Rachel, do you want to add to it as well?

[Robert Samulack]

As a student, this wouldn't have pertained to me exactly, but I did go back in the fall semester. Aaron passed away in June, and I went back for the fall and spring semesters.

We had support at Roger Neilson house with mental health support, support groups and a social worker to speak with, but I was back at school. About a year and a half later, I had a really bad burnout episode and it had some lasting repercussions. I got through the burnout episode, but then toward the tail end of COVID, working as a nurse, that burnout episode repeated. It's turned into a bit of a cycle with some burnout episodes.

I think a large part of it was that I didn't have that time to process it. As a student, this bill wouldn't deal with that, but if I had been in a paid role at that time, it would have dealt with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Ms. Koutrakis, you have six minutes.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you to our witnesses for being here with us today and for sharing your very personal stories. It's very generous. I know it probably feels like you have to go through the whole process once again, but I hope you feel good knowing that finally this is going to get through and that parents and families are finally going to benefit by having a better experience.

At this point, I want to thank all my colleagues on HUMA. No matter the party, we're all working together to get this done as quickly as possible. From the bottom of my heart, thank you very much to everyone here—to my colleagues—for working in that direction.

To better educate us as policy-makers and to better understand what families go through, is there something that each of you can share with us that would make us more aware and better able to understand what families are really looking to us to do to make it better? How can we make it better?

Could I start with Mr. and Mrs. Samulack?

[Rachel Samulack]

Thank you for the very thoughtful question.

One thing I mentioned previously was the CRA phone calls. They are federal public servants and those employees were not trained on how to deal with a bereaved person. One of them actually said to me, ”You must have registered him.” We didn't leave the hospital with a live baby. Why would I have registered him for benefits? It is just the thoughtlessness in the training for employees that occurs. It is the same with any of the services that happened.

We have friends who recently lost a four-year-old, and we had to be the ones to tell them that they needed to stop the Canada child benefit. The idea that we have these processes in place.... As a bereaved parent, unless you have someone telling you that, you wouldn't know that the benefit stops after six months or that this information is there. They didn't receive that from the hospital. There are a lot of processes in place where, as a public servant, I see that we can make improvements in sharing information and providing that information. Each health care system is separate. I understand that, but we have a responsibility as a government to provide information to Canadians.

I think that if we have processes in place, we need to make them clear and we need to not have them buried in a link on a website somewhere. This information needs to be provided front and centre to employees—and not just to employees. Actually, as an employee of the government, that's also something I could have received from my employer. I feel that there is a lot of room for improvement there.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Ms. Lapointe Tremblay, could you say a few words about that?

[Janie Lapointe Tremblay]

I completely agree with what Ms. Samulack just said. I think people need to be educated, because pregnancy and infant loss is a very taboo subject, to start with. No one talks about it. No one dares to talk about it. It's a hot potato no matter where you go. People don't know what to do, how to react or what to say. However, talking about it and recognizing it are important. When Ms. de Montigny appeared before the committee a few weeks ago, she talked about the importance of awareness campaigns around pregnancy and infant loss.

A lot of things could be done, things that aren't used, unfortunately, things that could help society a lot, things that could ease parents' grief and make the process easier for them. As I said earlier, we've seen parents whose grief was recognized by professionals and parents who came up against professionals who did not recognize it, and it makes a huge difference in the family's ability to rebuild, so yes, I think that is the foundation.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Is there anything that you would like to add, Ms. Kaluski?

[Danyelle Kaluski]

I would just add that I very much agree with the awareness and also the space that people have. I know in other meetings there was talk about not having these benefits be concurrent, so being able to have a pause if need be because grief comes in waves. It's not something for which there is a timeline to deal with it. Somebody can be in a moment where they can go back to work and everything is fine, and then there's a milestone or a moment in which they need time off. There should be some way that people could use these benefits in a way that makes sense for them, along with awareness.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

I will ask this question to all of you, and if we run out of time, you can always send us your submission.

I'm just wondering. Having looked at the bill are there any changes or improvements you see that we could have included in this bill?

[Robert Samulack]

I was a little confused on the wording. It says, a continuation of the leave, but if a person is on maternity leave, the maternity leave would continue but the parental leave hasn't commenced. It seems like they wouldn't start the parental leave after that point. They would get that 17 weeks or so, but then they wouldn't be given the following nine months or whatever it is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

We now go to Ms. Larouche for six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My sincere thanks to the witnesses for being with us today.

Everyone wants to see this bill passed as soon as possible, so that parents don't have to go through what others have gone through, in other words, being so overwhelmed by red tape that they cannot properly deal with their grief and heal.

As I look at you today, the thing you all have in common is that you were able to turn your grief into something else. You made a decision to do something with it, to give back to the next person in your shoes. Each of you, in your own way, chose to get involved to help future parents through an ordeal that no parent should have to go through. I want to thank you for all the ways you've contributed to these organizations and foundations.

Ms. Lapointe Tremblay, talk about the services your organization, Les Perséides, provides, to help us really understand the small miracles you work.