Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 29th, 2009

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Mr. Qayyum, what would be a recommendation to address the question at the federal level?

[Imran Qayyum]

If I may continue with my presentation...?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You're a good manager.

[Imran Qayyum]

Thank you, sir.

The first recommendation we would think would be to increase the targets from 2,000 to at least 5,000. This would have an immediate effect.

The second recommendation would be to establish a centralized intake office similar to what we have seen with the federal skilled worker program. We feel this has made a lot of difference.

Finally, our recommendation would be that obviously priority must be given to federal investor applications. We also believe that resources could be taken from other current but underutilized programs, such as the Canadian experience class, and redistributed towards investor cases. It makes economic sense.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, sir.

Monsieur St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Audet, you talked about the processing phases, for immigrant investors, which start in Quebec City and then continue in Ottawa. I have often heard that this is a duplicate process. It would appear that the Quebec government already verifies the source of income and all the rest during its assessment. Ultimately, much of the process related to the security check is apparently duplicated.

Is this something you see in the course of your duties? Do you believe that it would be possible to save time by not redoing the same job twice?

[Marc Audet]

There are two parts to your question.

In fact, unlike the other provinces with the Provincial Nominee Program, Quebec has a system with a good level of due diligence. I think that Quebec is doing an excellent job of selecting candidates. There are specialized business people, there are offices, namely in Hong Kong and Damascus where there are essentially business people. They travel around the world for interviews, and they are specialists. It is a good selection process, and I think that this is why, ultimately, the refusal rate for Quebec, once the permanent residence visa is issued, is currently around 3%. I think that Quebec ensures good due diligence, unlike the other provinces for which the refusal rates are much higher.

Now in terms of security, you understand that Quebec's hands are tied to some extent. It does not have the security tools needed, whereas the federal government has the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the RCMP, etc.

However, there could be better communication, by mutual agreement—this already exists, Quebec is already communicating better with federal officials abroad—to exchange information in the files and so on, to ensure that there is no duplication of effort. We talked about the medical exam and the security check. However, often, at the federal level, although the source of the $800,000 has already been verified by Quebec, the thinking is that this is a security issue as well. That is why there is sometimes duplication.

I think that we, in Quebec, need to have the appropriate discussions with our federal government counterparts to demonstrate that the work has been done. This depends on the mission. We see that, in some missions, the wait times are much longer and there are many more applications. We need to speak up and say that there is a problem at a given mission and that changes need to be made.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

You said that, typically, after one year, immigrant investors receive their selection certificate from Quebec. Once they have that, I understand that 97% of the time, they are accepted and receive a permanent residence visa to be able to come and live in Canada.

Is there no way to speed this up? Could we not allow them, temporarily and immediately upon receipt of their selection certificate, to settle in Canada? Because if they have the legal documents, then they are not terrorists, they have nothing to hide and they have very good reasons to believe that they will ultimately be allowed to permanently settle here. Could we not speed up the process separating the two steps?

[Marc Audet]

It is a little difficult to speed up the process. In fact, we must ensure fairness for all immigrant classes in relation to security. That is important.

However, overall, immigrant investors are typically about 50 years old; they are not 30-year-old millionaires. As I mentioned in my conclusion earlier, 90% of these people are doing it for their children, not for themselves. They already have a whole network of contacts around the world. They are doing this to ensure a better education for their kids and give to them a North American base. At present, our problem with regard to the five-year wait time concerns kids who are 14 and 15 years old. Their parents enrol them in other schools, be it in the U.K., the U.S. or wherever. Once the kids put down roots in one country—through the education system—they never leave, they get married, etc. So, unwittingly, if the kids settle in London, the parents will follow.

We feel that if we cannot speed up the processing time with the needed manpower, society will have to find a way to try to make it easier for these young people to come here in one way or another, so that they are schooled here. Quebec has already taken steps in that direction, recently, under its new legislation equating a diploma with a CSQ. In other words, we are telling them that if they come to Quebec to study, they will be able to apply for their selection certificate, and then get it.

The federal government needs to work towards something similar to allow these young people to study in our universities and put down roots here. Then, the parents will follow, as will the heritage and all the rest. The kids are the means to the end. We need to think of second generation and not only the first.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

You talked about investor mobility, and the possibility that investors will go elsewhere.

How does this actually work? Are people simultaneously applying to two or three countries? Are they shopping around? It cannot be easy, because it takes around $400,000 per application. Once they get fed up, do they give up and go elsewhere?

[Marc Audet]

Many investors are like university students. When someone wants to go to university, they apply to three or four universities, such as York, McGill and Simon Fraser. You need to understand where these people are coming from. Our immigrant investors are not from Europe or the Americas; they are from Asia and the Middle East. Why? Because there are political or economic problems in their country. They do not meet the criteria to apply under another class either.

Why would these people invest $400,000, when they could immigrate to Canada as a skilled worker? Because they do not meet the required criteria, they cannot get enough points because they are too old, do not speak the language or do not have the education. The program was created in 1985—it has existed since then—to attract these individuals. You would be surprised to see how many people are extremely well off.

There are two programs in the United States. Earlier, I mentioned a program requiring $500,000; there is a $1 million requirement under another. You would be surprised at the number of people investing $1 million.

There is a program in the U.K. with a 750 000 £ requirement, and the whole process is completed in three months.

Anyone can travel by plane between Montreal and Vancouver. You can go business class, economy class or first class, but the fare is not the same. These are the choices these people have.

There are other countries. We are lucky to have the best program in terms of costs, finances, structure, benefits for these people and their children, unlike other countries around the world. I did a comparative study with other similar countries: Australia, New Zealand and the United States. What is currently killing us? The wait times. Obviously, if it is too fast, we will get a flood of applications. No, we will not get 25,000 applications per year, because the pool of investors is limited.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Mr. Audet.

Ms. Chow, you are next for seven minutes.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

When an investor submits $400,000, what do most of the banks or your firm or others do in terms of assisting them in investing? Do they purchase buildings or condos?

[Marc Audet]

The program is regulated by the federal government. In fact, there is no choice. Under this program, the $400,000 is sent to the Receiver General of Canada. The money is transferred to a financial institution such as Desjardins or another bank. The $400,000 is then redistributed to the participating provinces.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Do they receive the funds after the application is approved?

[Marc Audet]

Yes.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Okay. Then they can't receive the funds during the application process.

[Marc Audet]

No, it's afterward.

[Imran Qayyum]

If I may, in the federal program the $400,000 is invested once a selection decision is done.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Right. Does that go to the Canada Revenue Agency?

[Marc Audet]

No, it goes to the Receiver General for Canada. After that, they will go back to CIC and they will split the money among the different participating provinces. We actually now have six provinces participating in the program, and they share the $400,000 for five years. Each province does what it wants with the money during the five years. Each immigrant brings this kind of money. The greater the number of provinces participating in the program, the less money they will receive per investor. They need more investors. All of the participating provinces are pushing CIC to have more planned.

That's on the federal side. On the Quebec side, the money goes to Investissement Québec, and with it we support small and medium-sized companies in Quebec as part of a grant program.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Other than the targets, is one of the problems the lack of resources overseas? I know that Hong Kong, for example, processes a lot of people. The majority of these investors are from that part of the world. Is it a matter of a SWAT team that would have three or four visa officers particularly in that office, for example, to clear up the backlog? Would that assist in this situation, aside from the targets and all that?

[Imran Qayyum]

Before IRPA, there used to be business processing centres all over the world, and they specialized in business-type applications from investors and entrepreneurs. This is why one of our recommendations would be to look seriously at a centralized intake office within Canada that would have the expertise to do the front-end processing to be comfortable with the numbers. Then the rest could be done overseas.

[Marc Audet]

There used to be nine business immigration centres around the world with specialized people. Hong Kong is a good place because they do a lot of investor class applications. The problem is that in Accra or Pretoria or whatever, if the guys see an investor file like this, with all the financial statements, and they have another skills application file like this, that's a part too. They don't have any training or financial background. You have to know what a financial statement is. You have to know what his benefit is, what his working capital is.