Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Oct. 27th, 2010

[Fanny Levy]

We ourselves don't recruit. We assist employers to recruit internationally. We provide the supports they need and the links they need to service Canada and local embassies. The province itself doesn't recruit these workers. We provide the support, as I've said.

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, QC]

This is support for companies that do their own international recruiting or go via the Canadian embassy—you mentioned the case of China—in Hong Kong, I assume.

There are special programs, for example in Newfoundland, that allow Canada to do selection. For example, if 100,000 people are waiting to be able to enter Canada, criteria are applied. The first involves family reunification and the second affects the skilled workers needed by the provinces, obviously on behalf of businesses. That is how Newfoundland is able to recruit skilled employees. I assume you also work that way where you are. No? The businesses arrange it themselves?

[Fanny Levy]

No, that's not quite the same in Manitoba. We have to make a difference between the recruitment of foreign workers and the provincial nominee program. Its objective is permanent immigration, not temporary, and--

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, QC]

I understand. You also talked about the criteria that are applied in the case of authorized recruiters. Are those criteria more stringent where you are than in other regions of Canada? How do you make sure that these are competent, honest recruiters? Is there a special section of the police that handles this or do you rely on people's good faith? For example, are they required to have knowledge about the law? What criteria are applied for you to grant them the privilege of becoming an authorized recruiter?

[Dave Dyson]

It's a fairly lengthy process. They have to disclose to us all their personal interests, such as any ownership of companies, directly or indirectly, which is a very arduous process. They have to sign statutory declarations that they'll abide by the legislation. They also have to put up $10,000 to me in an irrevocable letter of credit that I will use if I find out that a worker got charged something.

I think the biggest part in the legislation is that if one of our recruiters is acting as a recruiter, the only fees they can receive must be from the employer. They can never receive any moneys whatsoever, directly or indirectly, from the worker. When the workers come in, we interview those workers, and if we find out that they paid moneys, we'll take the money from the $10,000 letter of credit, do an investigation, potentially revoke the recruiter's licence, and report them to their governing body.

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Kriek, in the document you gave us, there is a quotation from the Second Secretary at the Embassy of Canada in Bucharest concerning unauthorized recruiters of exotic dancers. In the short document you gave us, there are a lot of file or form numbers.

Could you tell us a bit more about the problems the Second Secretary wanted to inform us of in that way?

[Cobus (Jacobus) Kriek]

Thank you for the question.

I was using both of those examples from Lexbase to show that, across the world, recruiters are practising immigration law. These are the only facts that I could find quickly to demonstrate that recruiters are practising immigration law abroad.

My submission is that they should not. Recruiters should recruit. Experts who are trained in immigration law should deal with immigration law. They are two different fields. But unfortunately, the immigration manual, at chapter IP 9, paragraph 5.4, indicates that recruiters may submit immigration applications or work permit applications.

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, QC]

I would like you to tell me, as an authorized recruiter, what basic requirements people who want to perform this function should have to meet. Should candidates have to be lawyers, for example? That would be asking a lot. People can't all be lawyers, but it is really dangerous to appoint just anyone as a recruiter.

Are there basic requirements you would like to see included in Bill C-35?

[Cobus (Jacobus) Kriek]

I didn't give it much thought. I just believe that provincial legislation, whatever it might be, must be adhered to. British Columbia has regulations about registration of recruiters. Alberta has rules about that as well, and Manitoba and Ontario have with regard to live-in caregivers, I believe.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Merci, monsieur Plamondon.

Mr. Rafferty, welcome to our committee. You have up to seven minutes.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Hello, everyone. This is the first time I've been at this committee. I guess I get invited so I can cause some trouble, so let me see what I can do.

I'm just kidding, Mr. Kriek. I'm not really going to cause any trouble.

I'm going to ask some questions. I'd like both Mr. Dyson and Ms. Levy to also answer these questions if they have some comments to make.

The first is about CSIC itself. When it's re-established, what do you see it looking like, particularly in terms of investigation and enforcement?

[Cobus (Jacobus) Kriek]

Mr. Rafferty, thank you for the question.

I don't have any particular comment on the new regulator. I didn't give it much thought. My objective today was only to address the two issues, which I have.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

You are a member of CSIC, though.

[Cobus (Jacobus) Kriek]

That's correct, yes.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

But you don't have any thoughts you'd like to share as to how it could run better, perhaps...?

[Cobus (Jacobus) Kriek]

No.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Mr. Dyson and Ms. Levy?

[Dave Dyson]

What I'll say is that I don't have a comment on who a specific regulator should be. I will say, though, that the CSIC board has been very supportive of our legislation.

As I mentioned earlier, the fact is that in Manitoba it's illegal for an immigration consultant, when they're acting as a recruiter, to charge the worker for anything. For the most part, a large portion of the CSIC membership was against that, and the board basically endorsed that part of our legislation and came to our committee hearings, because—I don't want to put words in their mouths—they saw that as being a hugely problematic area when an immigration consultant who is also acting as a recruiter has the ability to charge on both sides of the equation. From my world in employment law, you have to ask yourself the fundamental question: who's the client?

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Ms. Levy, do you have anything to add there?

[Fanny Levy]

As I said during my presentation, we want to ensure that whichever regulatory body it is, it will have the ability to prosecute unlicensed immigration consultants as well, which is the gap that we see in the legislation today.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much.

One of the sticking points seems to be about consultants who are working abroad and how to deal with those consultants. Under a new and re-established CSIC, do you see a way to somehow make them more accountable or to deal with them so they do the jobs they're supposed to do? I'm not under any illusion that they're going to disappear, so is there a way for a new body to deal with that? Is there something you see that they could move ahead with on that?

Mr. Kriek.

[Cobus (Jacobus) Kriek]

There are many sides to this.

Defining immigration law advice would be a good start. There has been a lot of discussion in the media and elsewhere about ghost agents, but the term “immigration law advice” has never been really defined in detail. That's really important so that we're all on the same page and all speak from the same foundation. That would be a good start.

Second would be changing proposed section 91 to ensure that nobody can assist a ghost agent, not somebody outside the government, and not somebody inside the government.

Those two things would go a long way in moving forward, as would making it an offence to act as a ghost agent, so that people doing that could face arrest upon arrival in Canada.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Ms. Levy and Mr. Dyson.

[Dave Dyson]

I have a comment. Again, what our legislation does is that makes either the employer or our licensed recruiter completely responsible for any fees that a worker may be charged. So if one of those parties is using somebody offshore and we find out about it, we recover those moneys from the licensed recruiter or the employer directly.

In our statistics, we find that we have employers who will register with us and indicate that they are recruiting directly. We kind of question ourselves on how they know somebody in China who they can bring over to work in their factory and they say they just have contacts. Then, when we educate them on that part of our legislation, they withdraw their business registration, which in my mind is a clear indicator that there was a ghost recruiter involved. So because that business registration is now stopped, we've eliminated the exploiting of a worker by a ghost recruiter.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Chair, do I have time for one final question?