Evidence of meeting #55 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consultants.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Board Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants
I guess my first comment would be a question. Is it not a criminal offence to engage in fraudulent activity like that?
Liberal
Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC
That's a good point. I think it is a criminal offence, but I don't think it has much—
Liberal
Board Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants
I see. I guess if it were a Canadian citizen in a similar situation, there would be an avenue through the courts, perhaps?
Liberal
Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC
No. I think citizenship or not, it doesn't really preclude it.
Board Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants
It doesn't matter. Okay.
Liberal
Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC
Right now the issue, if you see what happens, is that somebody gets penalized, for instance, or they might get sued. Then they just open up in a different name. Nobody actually has any criminal repercussions from it other than perhaps being sanctioned.
Board Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants
Then absolutely it should be. Yes.
Settlement Worker, Thorncliffe Neighbourhood Office of Toronto
No matter what, if these consultants are put in jail or whatever, I think the workers would look for other people if there is still a demand. Why are they going to immigration consultants for simple application forms? I think that's the thing we need to address. If you penalize or prosecute the other ones, they will look for another consultant to do this.
Liberal
Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC
My goal or my thought is that if an example is set, there will be fewer people, or people will be hesitant to commit such an action. They will fear more than just being sanctioned by a society.
As to your other suggestion, that they get PRs on arrival, the concern I would have is this. If you have fraudulent or ghost consultants filling in applications and pairing people up, then really we don't know if the people who are coming are actually live-in caregivers. Are they coming for that purpose or are they paired up with a family here? Is the labour market opinion genuine or not genuine? If we automatically give permanent residence to people who might not be genuine, then we face that risk and have to deal with that.
The point is to correct the system. Automatically granting it might actually fuel a lot more fraud, because now they can charge a lot more. They can stay in the other country and say, “As soon as you arrive, you'll get permanent residence. You don't have to worry about your job or your employer. You can bring your children. You're safe.” Now you'll have a whole new industry work its way backwards on creating fraudulent documents to get you in the door until we find out it has no relevance. I think there are challenges with that.
What would you say should be changed for ICCRC so that they could sanction unregistered consultants in the same manner as, say, law societies deal with unlicensed individuals practising law, or the dental society deals with an unlicenced dentist, or doctors in the case of surgeons? Do you think they need that type of tool so that they can sanction them more heavily? For example, I think there was a recent arrest of a dentist who was practising. It might even have been in British Columbia, my home province, where they found him. The penalties are huge and there's a large hindrance.
Is that the answer, Ms. Emory?
Board Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants
Again, they're operating illegally, so I think there has to be a process for identifying them and prosecuting them for what they're doing, yes.
Liberal
Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC
Second, for those who are operating as licensed consultants, are you finding the same problem with them, that people will hesitate to complain and there's no real due process?
Liberal
Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC
Do you have suggestions on ways that we can make it easier? Perhaps there's a confidential line, perhaps there's more privacy to it, or perhaps there's a way to protect the person applying. I understand, when you're in that situation, that you don't have permanent status in the country. You're heavily in the hands of this consultant, ghost or non-ghost, and therefore they can prey on you in terms of fees.
Do you know if there's a taxing method currently in the ICCRC? If lawyers, for example, overcharge a client, you can take it to the registry and a registrar will review it. The lawyer has to prove why his fees were such, and you can get it taxed. If a judge or the registrar finds that your fees are onerous or wrong, and you haven't justified them, they can reduce them.
Is there a similar such mechanism that you're aware of in ICCRC?
Settlement Worker, Thorncliffe Neighbourhood Office of Toronto
I'm not aware of anything like that.
Liberal
Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC
That might be a good method, I think, where it's not in terms of the work—you're not saying their work is good or bad—but for the amount of work they did. If they overcharged for it, you can go to a taxing agency. It could be the same taxing agency that's in the courthouses, justifying bills from law society members. It could be for that.
Settlement Worker, Thorncliffe Neighbourhood Office of Toronto
The protection piece. We make sure we encourage the victims to come forward.
Liberal
Randeep Sarai Liberal Surrey Centre, BC
This is my last question. Is it a public awareness campaign that is needed for the countries where most of the biggest victims of this come from, for example, the Philippines, China, India? Would it be better if Canada launched a public awareness campaign? It could say, “ If you come to Canada, you don't need to pay consultants to do paperwork. You can go to settlement agencies.”
Board Director, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants
Yes, definitely inform them about the services.
Liberal
Conservative
David Tilson Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Emory, I'd like to comment and maybe ask for clarification on your three recommendations. Your first one was that people who make applications and who have not done very well because of the actions of consultants shouldn't be penalized. The problem I would have with that is it's like someone who goes to court and their lawyer messes up and doesn't do a very good job. The client has the right to sue the lawyer, to report to the law society. But that doesn't mean that's the end of the case. The case has been heard by a judge. If the mistake was made by the consultant, that's the process. I just don't follow your idea of saying, “Well, what a wonderful way. It's like with a lawyer. If you have a bad lawyer, you're going to win your case.”
